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My friend owns the domain name Youtube.net, he is a newbie in the industry and is getting sued by Youtube.com right now, so he asked me for help today.

He doesn't park Youtube.net, instead, he uses it as the web address of an affiliate website selling weight-loss products.

Is this considered as a bad faith?.

I have no idea on it because I never registered a domain name like this (I like only generic ones)....

Can anyone please give a suggestion to my friend,.

Thanks!..

Comments (62)

I suggest your friend hand over the domain immediately. "Youtube" is hardly a general phrase and you'd have to be totally stupid to think you have any chance of keeping it. He must of known that youtube.com existed so he deserves everything he gets. He'll have no way to stand up in court, any good lawyer will tell you that. When are people going to learn? Stop leeching off other companies success!..

Comment #1

Difficult one...

No bad faith is being shown in the use of the current website.

However, as a lay person, I would say their argument would centre upon the date of registration and the likelyhood that the registration was made only after the registration of YouTube.com. As much as ive searched, the term "you tube" is not that well known - although I'm sure it could be argued that, in fact, where you friend comes from "you tube" relates to those people of an above average weight and thus your friend sells weight loss pills to said people...

That might be a lame argument but this is where your frineds vulnerability lies...

Comment #2

I can tell you (from all my proxy logs) that YouTube.com is an extremely popular service, I'm also pretty sure they bring in (at least) millions of dollars in revenue per year. Your friend will have a big problem if it comes to fighting them with lawyers...

Comment #3

Youtube.com is now one of the biggest websites in the world. Its popularity is phenomenal and as a result, they have a LOT of money. The upshot of this is that, basically, their lawyers will rinse your mate if his domain was registered after youtube.com, which it almost certainly was..

I would suggest your friend consults a solicitor and attempts to settle out of court, they will almost certainly want to save themselves the money, effort and potential bad PR of going to court, so they may make him a sensible offer for the domain.

If, however, he registered the name before they registered youtube.com they would be lucky to prise the name from him.

Looking at the site he has up though, it is far from great, and the chance of him claiming it was anything other than a way to capitalise on their traffic is VERY, VERY slim.

He should ask for some compensation, but not be too greedy, and hopefully they will settle out of court...

Comment #4

Youtube.com - Created: 2005-02-14.

Youtube.net - Created: 2005-08-14.

Exactly 6months different. You are basically screwed.

Robert..

Comment #5

Id say your freind is in good shape. At the time he reged the name youtube was not a well known service and shame on them for not spending 8 bucks to get the .net. Youtube will have there mind set on getting the name so unless your friend has some$$$ to spend fighting them I would settle. Ask for at least three years rev...

Comment #6

If I were youtube I've should registered .net, .org, .us, .biz and .info ... if this .net was free why they havent registered it??..

Comment #7

I'm not so sure. The website was created slightly before he registered his, but Youtube didn't apply for a trademark until this year:.

Word Mark YOUTUBE.

Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Software to enable uploading, posting, showing, displaying, tagging, blogging, sharing or otherwise providing electronic media or information over the Internet or other communications network. FIRST USE: 20050301. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050301.

Filing Date January 30, 2006.

That significantly strengthens your friend's hand, IMO. I'm no lawyer, but I don't think they would have much chance contesting the domain in court given that your friend registered his domain months before YouTube filed for a trademark. I'd still recommend he give the domain up, since even winning a court case costs a lot of money ask for a few years revenue or a flat fee. But this strengthens his negotiating hand, I think.

Ripley...

Comment #8

It is a tricky situation but your friend would be better of handing off the domain to youtube.com. A similar situation occured only with the tables turned...www.adsense.com isn't owned by Google but they took the name which was created in 1997...such a sad case...they didnt even compensate the owner...

Comment #9

How about you take a look at the website that is hosted on http://www.adsense.com, then if you still cant work it out, Google dont own it (read the bottom).

Also, just because a trademark hasn't been filed, it doesnt mean they have no intellectual rights over the domain. I doubt your friend would of registered it if youtube.com didnt exist, thus giving you a basis for a registration in "bad faith"...

Comment #10

Ok people, there are several people here who read to read up on TMs and domains before they attempt to post in this section..... some very poor advise being given here and even poorer interpretation of facts.

This is what matters.... FIRST USE: 20050301. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050301.

It has NOTHING to do with filing date in this instance. the .net was registered well after it was used in commerce.

Asking 3 years revenue, please read about TMs before you post again. The same about asking for compensation. Instant bad faith and absolute proof of being a squatter (not to mention good fodder for invoking the Lanham Act).

It does not matter if youtube has or does not have other TLDs, the only thing that matters is this domain in this extension.

The .net website curently up is not sufficient enough to claim interest in or rights to the domain.

This is not about youtube winning becuase they have money, this is about youtube having a good case to win...

Comment #11

Give them the domain - but ask $10,000 for it they will give you at least $1,000 in the end.

Funny, this could have cost only $8..

Comment #12

He asked for help not to be preeched at like he was a kid. You could have said this in a much nicer way.

Anyway.

You should probably hand over the domain save yourself the trouble. If your friend can afford to fight a huge lawsuit then go for it. Be a great learning experience...

Comment #13

What isn't funny is how you could learn a hard lesson using this advice...

Comment #14

I would strongly advise that your friend hand over the domain. He really has no case against YouTube.com, as far as I can tell anyways...

Comment #15

Little advice I currently own downloadbittorrent.com and bittorrent is saying they will sue me however; were currently working on a settlement $x,xxx.

P.s. I registered the domain last year for $10 so them just giving me my money back would have been enough.

I would say if your making money/youtube.net is a part time job for you then give it away but not without press coverage.

Get local media, make a video, post a blog up there from blogger.com.

Titleed "youtube wants my domain" or something in the end youtube gets the .net and you get free publicity on your brand assuming you own other domain names.

Just my 2 cents..

Comment #16

^^^ this is why domainers get a bad rep.....

Comment #17

Why? They have only been running a year and a bit and they have only just got popular. It could all soon fall down once the fad is over...

Comment #18

Hmm...I don't think asking for a few hundred is out of the question. Yeah it's risky but consider a few things. The lawyers on their side will cost them hundreds per HOUR. A UDRP will cost at least $2000-$3000 for them.

Also consider this...did the .net owner make good money while owning the domain? If he did then just pass it on to Youtube.com and chalk it up to a wash.

Read my thread about what I did when I got a C&D for a clear name violation.

And DNQ is right...the usage of the .NET has really screwed you. If you had built a site with actual usage DIFFERENT than .com you could have kept it possibly. Instead he is squatting.

Also 1 other thing...I see you are in Taiwan...is your friend also in Taiwan? If so then he has very good chance of simply asking them for money. The Taiwan legal system for intellectual property is a joke. I would be willing to bet that for $500-$1000 Youtube.com would rather avoid additional legal actions. Asking for $10k imho is very greedy and risky. You have to always ask BELOW what a UDRP might cost them...and enough below they feel it's worth it. Normally that's $500-$1000 depending on the company and it's lawyers.

Yeah I know DNQ and I are gonna disagree on this. Remember that neither of us are lawyers and with any legal action there is 2 sides. Consider DNQ and I those sides...

Comment #19

Can these amounts not just be claimed to be refunded from the defendant once the case has been won?.

Or is this legally not possible?.

I mean that is the procedure right?.

When someone looses a case the loosing party must refund the lawyer fees and other related costs right?.

So the loosing can potentially owe a lot of money then...

Comment #20

There are 2 issues here, legal, and reality...

Legally, you are squatting, we all know this.

Reality - your friend may be able to get money becuase it is easier than going through the whole UDRP process. But what you don't know is how the lawyers are going to react. There is more than just monetary losses here, there is also reputation. If you are labeled a cybersquatter and only lose the domain with no monetary loss. Any future disputes, your record can be used against you, thus losing credibility. This could be weighed against you when a panelist judges character.

Where Labrocca and I usuallly disagree is in the legal/reality arguement. We present both sides and it is up to you to weigh the risk/reward factor. In UDRP, there is no monetary awards. It is just who gets the domain and that's it. But if the complainant wins, they can pursue legal action and seek damages along with legal fees, and if they go that far, look for the Lanham Act to be invoked which is a $100.000.00 fine for occurance. This does not happen often, bu if it does, be prepared to go to the poor house...

Comment #21

And DNQ...whois does show this as registered in Taiwan. Honestly...I wish I lived there. I could own TM domains without fear of legal issues. The chances that youtube will pursue anything more than a UDRP is so low I would bet $1000 on it.

You can bet your life they will UDRP though if you don't resolve this with them. I am sure a $500-$1000 asking price from them won't break their budget. Legally he is in Taiwan...do you really know the laws there? They are sketchy at best...

Comment #22

Actually. jurisdiction is the US, it is where the registry is located.

I have already acknowledged the reality of the situation..

Comment #23

Sell it to me , I may be intrested in fighting a case with youtube..

Comment #24

U.S. Courts can't enforce lawsuits in Taiwan. They wouldn't even bother to sue him. Sure...they COULD...and if he ever moved to the USA they could take his assets...probability of this is 1 million to 1...

Comment #25

Tell your friend to make a video about this whole situation offering Youtube.com the domain name for $10,000 and then putting it on Youtube, Myspace and others. The only way to fair fight a powerhouse is to expose it to the public. Trust me they want to keep this all on the down low...make a video and call some news stations and spread the word...YouTube will buy the domain name from you rather than look like a big bully in the eyes of their users. - goodluck..

Comment #26

Well, my initial thoughts on this were - a deal, fair to all parties, would seem reachable.

However, some big Co's sometimes dont want to deal out of principal and prefer the WIPO route as a strong message to other would be squatters.

And, as an additional sidenote, DO NOT offer this domain for sale to youtube as this, in itself, can be seen as an example of bad faith and an abusive registration... Even replying to an enquiry can be deemed so. Remember, the guys that own YouTube are all ex-paypal execs, so they know their onions.

My advice, seek an internet lawyer to respond on your behalf (if you want to sell). Otherwise take the pocket change offer and hand it over...

Comment #27

Auch, that is a hefty penalty. Some sort of incorporation structure would possibly be an option and you won't even have to live there...

Comment #28

I notice the .info/.biz/.org/.co.uk/.us and all the 20 or so European country extensions are also all taken for youtube. See here: http://www.eurodns.com/search/index.php.

Are they also being forced to hand over their domains?..

Comment #29

Labrocca, I really like that word "assets".. I brought this up in another thread. Would you consider domains an asset? If so, that "asset" is located in the US, why couldn't someone who was awarded a US judgement go after an asset located in the US the defendant owns?.

I think I will start a thread on this just out of curiosity sake. http://www.namepros.com/showthread.p...65#post1407365..

Comment #30

Oh DNQ...he can surely lose the domain in a heartbeat. I think eventually he will anyways so imho he has very little to lose by telling them $500 for it. That's nothing to youtube to get the .net of their name.

Someone mentioned that offering the name for a price to them will show bad faith. Sorry but he is already using the domain in bad faith so that point is moot.

Anyways...it will be interesting too hear what he does and how youtube responds...

Comment #31

Do not hand over the domain name until there final ultimatum, make them spend loads on lawyers etc.

At the final ultimatum offer them a solution, saying that you are suffering from stress and anxiety due to there letters and say to put an end to the nightmare situation, you will sell the site to them for $6000(this is roughly the amount it would cost to take take you to court).

Good Luck...

Comment #32

I really don't see any way that he can win the case. He is already using the domain in bad faith, so in any court he would lose. That leaves the options of (1) asking them $500 or whatever for the domain, and (2) handing over the domain and taking the loss. Seriously, I see no reason to risk asking $500 for it, when there's a chance that it would simply cause more problems.

I guess that it's just a matter of pride from here on, since YouTube.com has every right to the domain, and your friend is just trying to cash in on his mistake of buying/using the domain in the first place. Either he just breaks down and gives the domain to the "rightful" owner, or he causes more problems by asking them to pay for it (which may lead to a legal battle).

Just my 2 cents, it really seems pretty clear-cut to me. Then again, I'm one who likes to avoid the legal system as much as possible...

Comment #33

Id park it and by the time court rolls around hell have made a good amount anyways..

Comment #34

Its amazing how YouTube.com has taken just over one year to get so big!..

Comment #35

Waste of money....it's almost better to be the little innocent guy...

Comment #36

If I was your friend, I'd stall with some emails with youtube.com. Park youtube.net for a fewdays before I give it back to them. Just so I can profit a little before I giveup that name...

Comment #37

Google.hu was owned by a hungarian company till now.. the first owner sells it for 9000$ the second for 14000$ and the last owner after a lot of problems gave the domain for free to google.... nice hmmm I recommend to your friend to sell it on the net for a high price to a bigger company who has the power to fight against youtube. Good luck man!..

Comment #38

I can't believe some of the advice given in this thread. A TM holder simply asking you to C&D then hand over the domain, in a case as clean cut as this, is taking the nice route.

Paying you $1000 for this single instance of TM infringement may be cheaper and less hassle than going UDRP, but suing your ass off in a court of law for TM infringment would send a strong message to other "youtube" domain holders and be a lot less hassle than hunting down hundreds/thousands of potential infringements and offering $1000 for each of them.

Being in Taiwan it's debatable whether they could ever actually collect on any monetary awards, but that won't stop a judgement against your name and a strong message to the rest of the community. Hand it over, it's not generic, it's a dumb name that nobody would have even paid reg fee for (obviously true, nobody did) before they started using it...

Comment #39

Interesting thread.

One thing that has always baffled me is how sites like YouTube and GoogleVideos can still operate, there is so much copyrighted material available on both I am surprised they can get away with operating.

Now I know there are hundred of thousands of other sites doing the same but I make the point of these 2 as they seem to be 2 of the biggest.

Can anyone answer that one?..

Comment #40

Yes, this is bound to change, much as it did with music, although the enforcement issues are much more difficult. The beauty of these video models is their decentralized nature; I fear this will not always be the case. Just as Napster soon begat iTunes, I believe there will be a dual solution here: TM holders acceptance of some work on YouTube, as well as a "premium" section for protected work...

Comment #41

Yeah very true, look how Napster went from being the "Bad Boy" to legality over the years (Napster holds a special place in my heart as it was the first site I downloaded an mp3 from back in the day, it was "2 Brothers on the 4th floor - Never Alone" and I remember it as if it was yesterday) I am sure that is what YouTube is angling at, they will make a heap of money from doing so too...

Comment #42

Keep it and get my publicity they cant touch him where hes at, I would take this to the press STAT..

Comment #43

The fact of this is.. Is that the domain is "YouTube.net" it doesn't matter if YouTube got a registered TR in so date. They where still a working business. Right now YouTube.com wants the domain and has the money to get it. Just as MS and the rest did. If you are not willing to settle on something..

Because anymore and they would say screw it and go to courts. Which would make you LOSE ten times more than you will gain and also be noted at a Cyber Squatter.. Which is also bad rep. Asking stupid prices like $10 Million and garbage is just stupid. I see enough kiddies on eBay wanted to sell their gjfjf-fgfjgjk_gjfjf.com for $10 Million and waste eBay fees that they end up not paying.

It doesn't matter if he is in Taiwan or not. The matter is he registered the domain from a US register and it is under the eyies of the US and therefore abids by the US laws. Not his home country. If he registered it at a Taiwan based register. That may be different.

It is also currently pointing to Sedo.. Another BIG mistake.. If you know you have a domain from anyother company. WHY are you parking it!!.. Espically when the parking service you are using is the biggest in the world! That is just.. Well..

Because now you are offically cybersquatting by parking it for money.

So now, I suggest handing over the domain OR asking for something between $50-200.. Any more and they are taking you to courts.. And that will not be pleasing on your side.

- Steve..

Comment #44

'.

Read the DMCA...it's the latest laws concerning copyright and the digital age. Youtube is a host...a content provider and is not liable for content posted by it's members. Any company can hit youtube with a C&D and have their copyrighted material removed. I have seen youtube do this already. Lots of ranting Steve but not the soundest of advices. It very much does matter he is in Taiwan.

Heck the domain owner could be a kid and not even liable under their statutes. Now if you think $50-$200 is a fair price for youtube.net...yer insane. It's worth 10x that much and to legally pursue this will cost youtube at least $2k...which means it's fairly safe to ask below that mark. I do agree parking it at Sedo was a mistake but that hardly matters. I am sure eventually youtube would want this domain no matter what...

Comment #45

I haven't read the entire thread but I read enough (I think) to get an assumption.

Because the .com was pretty much nothing on the day the .net was registered, I daresay that they couldn't claim your friend registered it out of bad faith. And the .net is being used in a manner that has nothing to do with the niche of the .com's site. Add the TM wasn't registered til later that year and I think you can say that even though it looks like the .com owners have the upper hand, it's a faux illusion. Your friend, however, would only be safe if these facts are known to the eyes of the court. Play these cards and I think your friend will be safe.

If your friend really feels that he has no chance, I'll take the .net off his hands. The courts don't and can't scare me. I have balls and time a dangerous combination. Add money and it'd be deadly...

Comment #46

Keep the domain till youtube is willing to pay you a good price for it, I'm sure they will not let you have it...

Comment #47

Ok, you just lost all credibility with that. I am not lawyer also, but I am going to college for a contracts law degree...I know a little bit about this because I have researched similiar cases before. All he has to do is show that he has a legitimate business as an affiliate of a company, show that he makes revenue that has NOTHING to do with YouTube.com and therefore YouTube.com has nothing on him. The only argument that they might have is that people who mistype the .com portion of it might try .net instead but I seriously doubt people who are mistyping it are going to look into weight loss what not.....

Comment #48

It is not a weight loss site. The owner has parked it and put sex ads etc. on it...

Comment #49

Who cares,.

Make money make money money money..

Comment #50

But even if he proofs he is not using the domain in a way that can harm youtube.com...but the fact is Youtube want this domain in their name...and a company can go to any extent to get it...be it the easy or the hard way! Your friend does not stand a chance to retain or demand huge amount from them! Forget it!..

Comment #51

Nice catch man.. keep it and take the money when right amount is offered..

Comment #52

I noticed that YOUTUB.COM is parked at sedo, with links relevant to youtube.com...

Would this also be considered TM problem?..

Comment #53

Nice first post... not.

I don't know why people are going around on this, the owner is obviously squatting on the name and using it in bad faith. This is classic cybersquatting....

It is very appearent many posters in this thread did not bother to type in youtube.net to see how it is being used, that is the first thing you should do before you try to discuss this situation. There are no if, ands or buts to this. Heck, jsut read this line on the home page.

"Youtube.net is your gateway to the best sites on the Internet for Funny videos!".

Umm, that is what the .com does and did it first...

Comment #54

Basically your screwed, depending if the names is getting massive amounts of traffic, I would try researching ways you can stall them long enough to make some more cash than hand it over. Either way your facing a big company vs. pocket change. Think there gonna have more lawyers...

Comment #55

LMFAO there is even tubeyou.com.

And that redirects to another site for quess what............video clips..

Comment #56

For clarification, the TM holder can sue for all monies aquired from use and sale of a domain, plus loss of revenue, punitive damages and legal fees. The Lanham Act can also have a fine of up to $100,000.00 per domain...

Comment #57

Ebay off the domain NOW, keep the money and let the next guy deal with the legal issues...

Comment #58

Such a short sentence, but the implications are huge....

1 - Selling a domain does not absolve the owner from liability.

2 - You will still be subject to all the penalties associated with squatting (loss of revenue, punitive damages, legal fees of the TM holder, Lanhan Act violation of $100,000.00 per domain).

3 - If you receive a C+D and sell the domain without notifying the buyer, this is open you up to liability of fraud since you were already notified that you may not have rights to the domain. let alone to sell it.

4 - So the buyer can hold you liable for non-disclosure and fraud, and in turn pay the buyers legal fees, return of his purchase price, punitive damages.

So would you care to restate your sentence?..

Comment #59

Yeh sure sell the domain and then go into hiding?..

Comment #60

Hehe, from what I see, it's Google that is infringing upon their company name...

Comment #61

Whilst everyones been droaning on... has there been any news about this case recently?..

Comment #62


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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