Your question was: !!!HOT ALERT!!! Is Godaddy.com Stealing Names from it's OWN Customers???.
Welcome to NPs Roo ....
Good advice and an even better outlook. You just earned a "good day" tomorrow.
Don`t get upset, there are bad people and good people, when yuo meet bad people, just forget about them..
If he can get $50k for his poor quality LLL.com's, he should snap at the opportunity to buy more up at 15-25k each. Maybe you could turn him into a possible buyer. Just kidding, of course, I doubt he really believes that. It just sounds like he's someone who enjoys being rude for the sake of it.
IMHO, far too many people toss out common courtesy and politeness when sending and responding to inquiries. Buyers can be just as guilty of this as sellers. Best to just ignore and move on.
I know. I've generally had very good experience with sellers. Even when sellers quote outrageous prices (175k for a NNN.net!), they're at least polite while doing so.
Ah what the hell...just another day in the life of a domainer...
This problem applies to a lot of markets. I used to own a highly modified RX-7, and when custom parts (rare, I'll admit) would come up for sale, sellers would want outrageous prices for them.
I would make a more than fair offer for them (sometimes more than retail due to scarcity) and they would respond with some rude BS response. Don't let it bother you. When they get the same response from every potential buyer, they'll figure out that they're the idiots.
Rude traders (buyers as well as sellers) may be doing you a favor when they make their contempt for your point of view clear right off the bat - so you don't have to waste any more time dealing with them, and can move on that much faster. There are plenty of good people to do business with, and usually more than a few good opportunities to choose from at any given moment in this market.
I think many if not most of us here are often "switch hitters" - buyers one month, sellers the next. So respect given to the idea of finding a fair price on both sides of the trade should pay dividends in terms of better bottom line in the long run - as well as fostering more "in the moment" peace of mind and basic sense of decency as you go about your business in a profitable way.
(Google "game theory ethics" for some interesting "abstract view from a height" perspective on fair play.).
And yeah, some people have a knack for pushing others buttons in a bad way - it's their problem, not yours, and ultimately often (but unfortunately not always) a severe handicap for them in the long run ... so, getting irked is a reasonable reaction, venting in a board post or blog entry is a healthy response - just remember to keep the perspective that you may have some choice in how much of the bad vibe you take away from the experience - you can laugh or you can cry ...
Usually better to laugh it off though! Say (to yourself even) "thanks, you just made my day - this was more entertaining than watching TV - who is your agent? You're perfect as a Major Twit, I'm going to write a role into my next script just for you!"..
That was really rude.
Not the kinda person to do biz with anyways so forget about it .. His/Her loss imo..
Look on the bright side - you may have burst his bubble by showing him the recent sales list. With any luck, he felt truly disappointed after that.
Don't worry this guy. He probably looked at that "one" HostGator like his golden egg. I have had one or two sellers flame me like this as well. Let it be his problem!.
I also blame lazy bulk whois spammers for nailing these guys time and time again with insulting $100 offers. One click of the button, and these guys email hundreds of HostGator owners. They pave the way for future flame outs for us...
Im not sure what world this person lives on but $4k is no low ball offer imo... I hope this person is a member heres, reads this and knows what a golden plonker they really are..
Just to clarify. Nothing I said was directed at Sashas. In fact, quite the opposite! Sashas made a great offer I feel, and did nothing wrong. What I meant was, sometimes past bad experiences can make sellers "colder" they they normally would be. I must admit, I get some borderline rude and insulting inquiries. These guys don't make our lives any easier, to say the least...
Unfortunately HostGator holders are not all domainers..
Everyone likes to think they have gold in their hands.
Fortunately not everyone is rude like that.
IMO the 6.5K offer would be fair reseller price but it's true you can get more from an end user. I guess the guy just doesn't want to sell at reseller rate...
Pretty rude eh, that was a very good starting offer !.
Although if I owned a LLL I would'nt be interested in selling at reseller prices to be honest.
Qrd.com sold for $5,000 on sedo today so I guess there's still a few around willing to sell cheaper than 50K.
I know...funny but the guy came back with a 10k counter offer, and was much more serious. But this time, I replied with the f*ck you.
I might've lost a deal, but I still won't take my dignity being trampled on...
A dictionary .com word with 0 OVT, 0 Wordtracker, 10,000 Google Search Result was on sale, and I made an offer of mid $xxx (passed the minimum offer), and I didn't even get a reply (inc. no counter offer) back.
Sometimes, I do get a rude response after making an offer, but I try not to take it personally..
I hope that we can all treat each other with respect and courtesy, but there are always those who do not feel like doing so...
If someone owns something - They can ask whatever price they wish for it ...
The first response wasn't rude - But once they've hinted to you that you aren't even in the Ballpark price range, You persisted by sending them Wholesale prices as "proof" ? Most people holding these domains at this point Really aren't interested in selling them at Wholesale prices any longer. And when you consider they recieve Dozens/Hundreds/Thousands of offers just like this (Not to mention most of it is unsolicited email they consider spam instead of a Good old Phone Call) - Yes , They are human and get pissed off a bit.
By the way , IMO - There are NO more "bad" letters in LLL.com's. That factor went out the window a few years back really. There may be "Great" letters - But I wouldn't consider any of them bad..
There are two seperate things going on, 1 is rudness and email ettiquette; generally people feel they can say what they want without thinking more so than in a face to face meeting. And the second is, hot-headed folk that have not learned their good graces, and while it is there right to decline, they also didint have to resort name calling.
As far as encountering any rudeness directly on NP (which is rare indeed) you can always block the person, to avoid any problems. Good luck on your quest for LLL.com BTW!..
Yes who wants to do business with people like this, it could have got much worse half way through a deal. Plus this person will most likely find it hard to sell with their attitude anyway...
It's called greed and that could mean we are getting towards the beginning of the bubble burst.
You'll see it from real estate to beanie babies. When people have that attitude, it's time to sell not buy.
I first noticed this greed in Moniker's latest Geo auction at the Associated Cities conference. The bidders were bidding on the domains but 80%+ of the reserves were just way too high.
So, the auction flopped (in my opinion) and that's a crack in the market. I think bidders get frustrated with the greed and are potentially lulled to believe that they should be selling rather than buying if reserves/prices are so high.
Then, a lot of domains hit the market and now you have more supply than demand and now prices start to decline.
Hard to say if we have hit that point now but as a broker, I see my share of greed and it's not pretty.
So, I don't think now is the time to be speculating but owning great names and developing is still fine and will be long term but if you're buying domains on credit in the suburbs, the internet real estate market just might be at the peak...
Yes, they could have been nicer,.
But not everyone with something.
Valuable wants people asking them.
To sell it.(especially below market value).
I see it your way, just trying to see.
It the other.....
.......see, it comes around. You always need to treat people with dignity. That fellow got to looking at that offer and tought, you know what, that would make a pretty good Xmas. Too late! He's already burned that bridge!..
Out of curiousity.... was your offer email something like this:.
"Would you be interested in selling; We can offer you $4,000 and pay ALL the escrow fees at Escrow.com. Afternic fees at 10-20% can take a bite out of the profit. Please let me know if you would be interested.".
Lol... just got this one.
Regardless of a possible history of getting lowball offers - that person was rude and unprofessional. The same amount of energy he expended saying "F**k You lowballer" - a succinct "no thanks" would have sufficed.
No doubt you are dealing with an immature person who is unable to communicate like a decent human being.
I get these kinds of messages almost daily, and sometimes several times per day. Most are just silly lowball offers made by people scanning whois with no attempt to see if the HostGator is for sale. For domains not listed for sale then this is just spam in the eyes of the receiver. I ignored a mid $XX,XXX for a HostGator a couple of days ago that is not listed for sale. If a buyer exercised due diligence (most don't know how to spell the word) he/she would notice that when you go to the site and look at the FAQ's section, one of the more prominent questions is whether the HostGator is for sale, and the answer is one word: NO.
I ignore almost all offers by email. I make up for that by not answering my phone. Problem solved. Being rude to either a buyer or a seller is not the best business practice. Ignoring spam is a time-honored best practice on the net. If a buyer really wants to get in touch there are ways.
Nobody owes a spammer a "courtesy of a reply".
Just curious - you ignored a $xx,xxx offer. Was this one of those appraisal scams or is the HostGator simply not for sale at any price? Lets say you were offered $xxx,xxx - would you have considered it..
It was an offer for a HostGator that is listed as "not for sale" on the website, since I get a lot of requests. Not everything is about money.
That is a terrific attitude, if you can afford it - and you apparently can! ( rep added for sticking to your guns )..
Can I just offer a different perspective to this please? According to one particular site, the minimum wholesale price for an LLL.com is $6,000 as of the 1st December.
So, basically what you were saying to this person is: "Dear Sir,.
I would like to offer you the huge sum of $4k for that.
Crappy HostGator of yours. Can you believe that?.
I must be mad but I'm happy to pay that much for it!.
You'd be a fool to miss out on this. Money is ready, I'll.
Take that awful name off your hands and give you loads.
Of money for Christmas!".
However, this seller is no idiot and is obviously a bit tired of people like yourself treating him like one.
You purposely offered him 33% less than minimum wholesale price as you didn't consider him clever enough to know what he could get for the HostGator quite easily on a domainer forum.
In his eyes he was probably thinking "here's another dodgy buyer trying to find a gullible seller. He must think I'm a complete idiot and he's trying to trick me into selling for a whole lot less than this HostGator is worth...I wonder how many people he has sucked in with this?".
So, what do you do when he gets a little angry and fires off a reply?.
You send him a list of recently sold HostGator names that are similar to his.
In that list, were there any LLL.coms that had sold for $4k or so recently? I doubt it.
So, in your second email to him, you basically admit that you were trying to lowball this person and offer him a lot less than the very minimum value of his domain.
I got an offer recently that was very similar to this and I must admit that it got my back up straight away.
The person who sent it was obviously trying a scatter-gun approach to try and find sellers who didn't know any better.
Now, I can understand that you wanted some immediate profit but I can also understand how such a low offer can really annoy someone.
And, let's face it, $4,000 really isn't a fair offer for any LLL.com - is it?.
If you were willing to pay $6,500 - a fair price I would agree - why not just offer that in the first place?..
You are right but as I see it the 4K offer is way of starting the ball rolling.
You usually don't start with your best offer so as to keep room for negotiation.
Now I receive E-mails like that every week too and I usually ignore them. No need for being rude...
I think this pretty much turns all management principles on end.
Do you EVER offer, straight up, what you think a HostGator is worth, even on NP? In this price range, not talking about the small deals.
And did you ever stop to think, x and z means this is a perfect candidate for min. wholesale price, meaning that $6.5k might be the MOST he might have wanted to pay and $4k is a decent price to start negotiations at. He didn't offer him $400.
I recently tried to purchase a name for a client. The budget was a decent $10k. The HostGator in question has been booked in feb this year - maybe at a drop service...but thats what the whois says. And the client has prior IPR - trademarked and whatnot.
I opened at $1k, went upto $5k. The buyer opened at $45k and came 'down' to 42k. Since there are only three possible edit - buyers end users for this HostGator even at the $10k range, don't you think thats reaching.
The client is now seeking legal opinion from his in house fleet of corporate lawyers trying to justify their fat pay packets and perks. 'Nuff said ...
We don't even know which particular LLL.com it is but the fact remains that there is a minimum that is widely accepted.
It is probably different for other types of domains but with this particular niche in the domaining world, it is know that $6,000 is the minimum so 4k is a very lowball offer. Like offering $200k on a $300k house.
I realise that everybody should look to negotiate when buying a house, domain, car etc but when there is a minimum, as there is here, you are likely to offend by going very much lower than this artificial "price floor". Some people handle it better than others and obviously this HostGator owner did not take it very well.
Let's not forget what somebody else pointed out in this thread, the owner doesn't have to sell unless you meet his price expectations and he obviously isn't interested in reseller pricing.
But, he could've handled it better. If he wants $50k then your offer of $4k should've shown him that you weren't ever going to go anywhere near what he wanted.
On the other hand, if he hadn't replied then he might have been worried that you may have continued to send emails day after day (as some people tend to).
All in all a pretty unconstructive exchange of emails which is a shame but perhaps you will have better luck in the future..
Well at the end of the day a $4000 offer on a HostGator *everybody* knows is worth at least $6000 is lowballing. It isn't like there is a cloud of uncertainty over the value of such names. Exactly right...
Sedo should add this to the add a comment section if you get a guy making the same offer over and over, with an occasional ' justify your asking price.'..
The simple fact is that when you make offers below an accepted minimum value, you're eventually going to take someone for their money. Now whether this was the intent, or merely a negotiating point, the end result in these situations is the same. You get a deal, while someone else loses money.
And I am not saying that this is inherently wrong, or that it's not a common practice. All I am saying is that I'd rather be on the receiving end of a nasty email than on the giving end of a bad sale.....
Politeness costs nothing in any biz not just domaining.. I could understand the seller thinking bugger off if the initial offer was $500 but for 2 bad letters (lets not forget this is not a prime lll.com), I think $4K was not such a bad starting point for possible further negotiations..
None of us start negotiations with the top price... do we.
If the seller only wants $50K offers maybe they should put this as a bin price then they wont be annoyed by low ballers..
Mark beat me to the punch, but I agree with his response. While I certainly do not condone individuals being rude, you have to remember it was you who first initiated unsolicited contact. While I believe your initial offer was a fair starting point, individuals with better domains receive inquires daily with low ball offers. Your offer was certainly better than a $25 offer I received on one of my past LLL.com domains (just search the forum for the thread discussing it). The quantity of these unsolicited, low ball offers tends to reduce sellers' patience...
I got a very similar email 2 days ago....
I'm probably as guilty as anyone about having ignored inquiries and lowball offers, but at the minimum I'll try to write back with something short like "Sorry, not for sale." or "Not interested, thanks for the inquiry." After doing this for so many years I try to avoid getting into banter that ends up being a waste of time.
I guess it takes an offer of at least 33% to 50% of what I feel name is worth selling at to even pique my interest in negotiating or responding with a counter. When I do respond, I try to do so politely and professionally. As mellow said, politeness costs nothing.
Personally, I do not thing $4K is a "low ball" offer. Heck, this past week, a nice LLL.com (QRD.com) sold for $5K on sedo! Do you think this was the first offer sent to the seller? You never know a situation a seller is in. They might need money, or maybe paid reg fee for the domain, or whatever.
If you don't start off low, you will not get a HostGator for a "fair price". Just because a web site says the Wholesale value of HostGator is $6K doesn't mean it is. If you think so, then my 50 State Bridge for sale company is going to be around for a long time!.
I have seen a couple LLL.com's sell that were reported on DNJ in the low to mid $5K range. Think of how many sell that don't get reported. What prices do they sell for.... It's just business, offer as you wish and accept as you wish, but be nice about it. I do not agree with the F you kind of stuff and Sashas, should not of stooped to that level with his F you back...
I happen to agree with Mark. Any seller does not have to respond or even negotiate with you. It is their property & if the offer is not to their liking, it is their right to not want to business with you.
I also think you were wrong in responding with sales as that has absolutely nothing to do with the respective name you inquired about. What others sell their name for is not of a concern to me if I have a price in mind that would satisfy me. If you don't like it move on to the next one & go about your day...
To be fair to both side, getting annoying email that tries to snatch your precious stuffs and getting insulting email reply should have been considered as a risk in domaining business.
In meat market, the seller should risk himself to annoying haggles, while the buyer himself should risk himself to insulting reply from the seller.
It is common sense.
Whether politeness is part of marketing, part of good business, or whatever it is, the risk is there.
Noone can demand the buyer to be more polite.
Noone can demand the seller to be more polite.
Whether the seller or the buyer will get better profit/sales by being polite is not the point anymore...
I agree. Lots of people curse nowadays, even at the smallest things. I'm tired of it. It's boring, annoying, and pointless. Maybe it's a new kind of virus which thrives on negative energy...
Thats a very immature and unprofessional way to deal with a possible sale. Im not worried I hope he puts it up for auction and gets 10 cents...
I guess the question is whether the domain.
Was listed for sale or not. If it wasn't, then.
What makes it any less annoying than a tele-.
Marketer harassing you as you sit down to eat?.
I bet everyone here is very polite in that situation.....
The whole point is this is NOT a meat market. Its a business where the majority of the players are educated and intelligent people. And as RJ says, politeness costs nothing.
I have people routinely offering me $100 on a $1000 domain, I tell them what I want and move on, why be insulting?.
And this is a small market, insult one person and the word spreads soon you'll need to goto the meat market to sell your domains...
So, when you buy a new car, do you instantly offer to buy the car for the MSRP?.
33% below MSRP is a great starting point....likely you would end up, depending on the car, between 10 - 15 % below MSRP.
I guess I just don't understand where your coming from, that the first offer should be precisely what the market price is.
It would be a little odd for a car salesman's second communication to a prospective buyers explanation as to how he came up with his offer...to be " f*ck you".
Why is domaining any different?.
Seriously, why are HostGator sales any different?..
Glad you responded before I did. Why would you offer the max your willing to pay rather than "ice the seller" if you will...
I would bet that MOST educated people do not respond with a curt "f*ck off" to telemarketers...
Google game theory -> "tit for tat" strategy ... but it's often a sub-optimal outcome ("an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind").
And whatever lofty "view from a distance" posting here allows me to aspire to ... to be honest I'd certainly be inclined to respond the same way, so really writing these words to myself as well as for the protagonist of this silly saga, our friend young sashas ...
Sashas ... I'm sure you've still got at least one good eye left + the multiple and very valid points of view offered by other posters in this thread.
Healthy appetite for irony & absurdity focuses attention on a few conundrums -> the same rudeness from your counter-party that you complain about was then (easily?) provoked and reflected in your own response after the potential seller got serious, perhaps realizing that they made a mistake in their hasty response - maybe they were having a bad day - who knows what came before your own interaction with them .... Well, bottom line "lesson learned" if we weren't already aware of this very human trait - even the most level-headed among us can be provoked to act ourselves in the same ways that we quickly see as obvious failings when the shoe is on the other foot.
Noting another irony - the post title -> "dumb, insulting sellers" <- oh lordy ... How many sellers read the title and didn't know whether they'd just been insulted (called "dumb"), and either passed on reading the thread, or came into it with their hackles already a bit on edge ...?.
So, obviously it's easy to make a mistake which can start to ping-pong and snowball ....
But how to correct it?.
How much true dignity would you be able to come away from this experience with if you were able to get back in touch with the seller, make a good deal (which seems like you were getting close to) ... and both end up having a good laugh about the temporary insanity which is IMO a very understandable occupational hazard in fields involving long-distance haggling with strangers to exchange relatively large sums of money for rights to use abstract properties that have arguably uncertain value?.
I'd venture to guess you would be far more proud of that sort of win-win victory over the "rudeness virus" in the long run ... much more than any temporary satisfaction from responding with your own rudeness.
And if the potential seller is having another bad day (maybe the 345th one in a row for them this year, who knows) and they sieze the petty opportunity to try to push your buttons again ... well then at least you tried your best to help both them and you make a profitable deal, and started to develop the powerful business skill of not taking things too personally when dealing with people you don't really know ... (certainly debatable, but good food for thought nonetheless)..
I dont say being not polite is right(I don't say it is wrong either). It is just that everybody has different presentation of being polite. I am just presenting it in the regular market such as meat market.
Some people might think that politeness cost something, some think politeness is not granted, or at least I know some people has different level of politeness. Some think that haggling for their stuffs is not polite, some think it is ok as long as it is polite, some think it is ok as long as they ask between the price want, some even think that politeness cost their lifes,(etc and so on). no one can control this. Being rude does not stop them from having HostGator names. RJ thinks politeness cost nothing, you think politeness cost nothing, to me? Politeness can be free, can be costly. But one thing for sure, we (including you and I) are doing this domaining stuffs because we want to make something (money, fun, pride, etc) not because we want people to be polite with us.
Just think this way, instead of thinking that politeness cost nothing, why don't we think that being treated this way is a small risk to pay(actually too damm small, might be free) considering the profit that we could get if the seller accepts our offer?.
Hopefully my view on this case is not offending you...
The situation is diffierent because the buyer is approaching an owner, so less professionalism would be expected, plus who we don't even know if this name was even listed for sale. If you pulled up someone in the street and said you wanted to buy their car, then proceeded to offer them 33% less than the cars market value I bet there would be a % who would respond angrily, mainly because it sends the message "hey there, you look a bit stupid, want to sell your to me for two thirds of it's market value?". Trying to buy something through a dealer is a different thing entirely...
First of all, my offer was no where insulting. I wasn't offering an xxx amount on a LLL.com. The guy could've easily turned my first offer into a good sale if he'd been more polite. The first offer is never the last offer, and if the first offer is 4k on a 6k name, as a domainer, I would definitely listen more than being smartass about ti. If the offer was $400, then yes, it was okay..
I agree with you 100%. The guy is obviously not a very good domainer or business man...
Maybe the owner of the name was having a bad day.. Maybe he was tired of offers below his expectations... whatever the situation...
NO need for his response imo ..........
We are professionals..............
You know, my entire issue is not even the guy or the HostGator or the entire transaction. My issue is simply about us being polite as human beings. Whats got into us that instead of typing a "Thanks, but no thanks" we have to use the F word? A couple of polite words cost nothing.....
Absoloutely right Sashas.
I say,Treat people how you want to be treated yourself.
This person is not even worth thinking about imo.
Good luck in your search..
Why obsess over how the seller responded? Just move on & go about your business. There is no rule that says anyone has to be polite so why harp on it?..
I'm not obsessing over the seller. I've already bought another much better name. I'm obsessing about the lack of politeness in our society. There's no rule about it, but it's just common human courtesy...
People will be people. If they want to be rude just move on. You arent the one getting angry they are. I learned this in fast food: the more pissed off and bad day they are having the ruder they will be to you, because they are trying to make someone else feel what they are feeling.
Take it with a grain of salt and move on...
Sometimes the worst insults or actions can be very politely veiled... Personally I'd prefer a hearty "f*ck you" than some patronizing show of politeness with the exact same message, but thats just me. I like frankness, especially in business, because than you know exactly where you stand...
The very basic rule is politeness, f*** is big no no.
However you need to understand the seller may be frustrated. For example, the LLLL price is pretty public, people know very well how much I bought them, and yet I got.
Offers for half of the price I paid for...