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My first question is: Has anyone had a web build through godaddy.com?.

My next question is: Reverse hijacking is on the increase guys..

LH.com has just been lost by elequa.

Feel bad for him as this is a terrible decision by wipo imho and it raises questions about their integrity and conduct imo More Here..

Comments (165)

Your question was: Has anyone had a web build through godaddy.com?.

Agreed, he turned down offers for 1 million in past.

Make no mistake he doesn't need money, not the point, but makes clearer that it's not bad faith, just that he's a rich guy and likes collecting domains. his call imo.

Same way if you own 20 van goghs and keep them in your shed, it's your call, you dont expect the Dutch government to take you to court for abusing their heritage, yet that would be more serious.

Maybe forgetting parking altogether is best, I am dveeloping more and more as every day goes on More Here..

Comment #1

It's ridiculous... If someone wants to collect paintings, property, shares of stocks, currency, etc they're free to do it, but if you don't put a $1M HostGator to good use, you lose it? Seriously wtf?..

Comment #2

Agreed Reece.

Also, he would have paid a lot of money to acquire, they're using this against him, they say one thing against him is he wasn't the original registrant?!! wtf.

Seriously we should mass complain about these freaks who made the decision, friggin shylocks and fraudsters.

Whats more German firms are notorious for underhand tactics..

Comment #3

Companies know wipo is the cheapest way to have a name can cost thousands or even millions and some have been successful there.

I am worried because this shows maybe one day (and I think it isnt so far) who have the money will always win..

Comment #4

That's what I fear too Bricio. It's a sad day when one has to worry that what they own can be taken away from them at anytime for some made-up-BS reason.

What's next? Is someone gonna wipo CNET for not putting com.com to good use?..

Comment #5

That's precisely what worries me when it comes to very short domains, especially 2 or 3 letter ones.

I remember that we discussed recently on NP the purchase of NTV.tv on Sedo. I pointed out that it might be risky as there are many huge tv channels which are called NTV (in Russia, in the US, in Germany, in Japan, in India, etc).

Almost all very short domains are abbreviations of company names, many of which are trademarked.

The fact that these very short domains are abbreviations of company names is precisely what gives them a very high value, especially when it's a .com.

I would definitely advise anybody who owns a LL.com or LLL.com to develop it and not park it. Parking those very valuable names is the best way to lose them in a trademark dispute, especially as I'm pretty sure that these disputes on very short domains will be seen more and more often in the future...

Comment #6

Me too, and he actually has the dosh to take on Lufthansa too..

Love to see them get their arse kicked, also for the panellists to get a boot up the arse as well..

Comment #7

Well, British Airways own ba.com, American Airlines own aa.com, so Lufthansa were jealous and wanted their LL.com too.

Well it's quite obvious that this should lead to a lawsuit. There's just too much at stake. It should be quite interesting to follow.....

Comment #8

As would I.

Someone has to teach these POS they can't just treat us like dirt, screw us out of the domains we legitimately own, and label us cybersquatters.....

Comment #9

What's interesting is that, if you check on WIPO, there are actually quite a few companies who have trademarked "LH" worldwide, including the Swiss luxury jeweler Leon Hatot (part of the huge Swatch Group).

How can Lufthansa call this cybersquatting when other companies have trademarked this very same abbreviation too ?

Comment #10

They treat us like dirt because they see us like that.

People out there dont know domainers, they know big companies and when they do wrong things they are in the news and of course this gives us all a bad reputationse those who lead this industry should be have the.

Those who are the most influent here should conduct their business fairly but sometimes it doesnt happen, so those out there know us cybersquatters..

Comment #11

The panel found that FMA did not have any legitimate rights in the mark. If Leon Hatot owned it, the complaint would not have succeeded.

The lawsuit is already pending. This will be a very interesting case to follow...

Comment #12

Fortunately Elequa has the funds to fight this in Federal court and hopefully will win there. He had already brought suit before the UDRP decision, perhaps an indication that he expected the ruling. He may have smelled a rat.

The question is what can be done about an out-of-control WIPO agency? It is the same issue as the Snowe bill - the potential of a daisy chain of companies each hijacking a HostGator from the previous owner.

There need not be foul play in this decision, ignorance and dislike of domainers would suffice. Many view all domaining as "cybersquating" and parked pages as the internet equivalent of litter.

The best defense may be to not hold valuable domains unless you have a trademark and are using them...

Comment #13

Then they would have got what they wanted and would have won.

Domaining is perfectly legal and it's about time we were stopped being treated like social lepors...

Comment #14

Definitely... don't park them, and never offer to sell them...

Comment #15

This is a load of crap. It is unfortunate the HostGator was lost, however I think the court battle is exactly what is needed to end this crap once and for all.

I think in these kind of cases, even if the ruling goes against the HostGator owner, the winner should still be forced to pay fair market value like with eminent domain.

This is just a wholesale theft of a $1M+ domain...

Comment #16

Very true indeed.

I guess the best thing to do for LL.com (or possibly even LLL.com) owners is to trademark these domains, don't you think so ?

It's too expensive and useless to trademark every single domain, but I think it's something to consider seriously for very valuable domains, especially two or three letter ones which are almost always abbreviations of company names (which means a very high risk of trademark dispute)...

Comment #17

I hate to sound paranoid, but with how fast generics and short domains are rising in value, how much longer can we expect it to be before we start seeing corporations attempting to bribe panelists?..

Comment #18

I'm sure most will say it has happened before.

Think how connected politicians and heads of industry are?.

Decisions made in houses of parliament in UK all the time where Lords are directors in companies and all know each other etc.

Sure same goes on here..

Comment #19

Wow! this is simply disgraceful.

This is the equivalent of someone stealing $1,000,000 off of someone.

One of the worst decisions WIPO has ever made...

Comment #20

The fact is that if you own a $1 million house, car, diamond or painting, you can't afford not to have it insured.

And if you own a $1 million domain, you can no longer afford not to have it trademarked, especially if it's a LL.com which is an abbreviation of many big corporations with large legal departments...

Comment #21

I think it's time for a sticky thread on "How to prevent HostGator theft (including reverse hijacking).".

Also, another sticky thread on "How to filter genuine buyers/sellers from scammers"...

Comment #22

Absolutely. Why not they buy from the owner by paying the right price? It is just a kind of robbing or stealing...

Comment #23

In this case it has hit someone that can potentially afford to go for a lawsuit and end this disaster caused by an uneducated, unreasonable and simply false decision. My problem is more along the lines of; what happens when it hits any of us? The ones that have enough to collect domains, but cannot afford a 6-digit lawsuit to defend what's rightfully ours? The unfortunate downside of the story is that even within our own circles, WIPO one should believe understands the domainers motivation to collect, we are not being considered equal or even being treated with respect. It's yet another sad day in the domaining world.

Safety net is development? It's probably the safest way to use a domain, at the same time, with decision like the LH.com one, even development might be reduced to a joke.

M...

Comment #24

This just goes to show that parking ANY considerably valuable HostGator is a bad idea. I think Elequa's past UDRP's and not putting his lawsuit on the table really did him in. I sincerely hope he makes "LH" and WIPO bleed for this disgusting travesty of justice...

Comment #25

It's utterly ridiculous.

I'd like to see stealing someone's physical property for "not putting it to legitimate use" stand up in a U.S. court.....

Comment #26

Wiposucks.com Taken.

Wiposucks.net available.

Wiposucks.org available.

Wiposucks.info available.

Wiposucks.me available..

Comment #27

What is the point of being in this business if you can get wiped out at anytime.

But seriously.. If your offered $1Million for a HostGator take it.

The internet is created for people to use,create,educate.... These extentions were created for that reason not to store away and keep it as a collectable because your greedy... Use it or loose it!..

Comment #28

Thanks Mark!.

Wiposucks.net is mine gonna make getting this developed a top priority..

Comment #29

Elequa took it to the court already.

What is very funny is that a German company (Lufthansa) fights for a HostGator owned by a Virgin Islands resident in the USA.

Elequa has his own registrar and could have moved it there, but he kept it at Moniker. Wil be interesting to follow the story..

Comment #30

Original Link for those just joining thread: LH.com Lost..

Comment #31

I bought an LL.ca recently whose original owner had used the HostGator for years as an email address. He never tried to sell the domain, he just wanted a short HostGator for his email and I don't think he had a clue what it was worth... WIPO would consider such use as "not using the domain", yet this guy was using the name each and everyday as an email.

What really gives WIPO the right to dictate how we use OUR names? How much money do domainers pay ICANN each year in fees? What do we get for this - more laws + rules to screw us over?..

Comment #32

Host Name : wipo.org IP Address : 193.5.93.80.

Host Name : wipo.int IP Address : 193.5.93.80.

You know , Several of Those "Numbers" are in my Birthdate and my SS# ... Shall I file a complaint ?

Oh and :.

Worldintellectualpropertyorganization.com.

Worldintellectualpropertyorganization.net.

Worldintellectualpropertyorganization.org.

Worldintellectualpropertyorganization.info.

All available as of this post .....

Shall we Reg and File a complaint on several of the Domains using those initials ?

Comment #33

There's already people trademarking 1 letter domains in anticipation of their release...

I mean seriously, where does this stop?..

Comment #34

I think there needs to be some sort of compensation attached to a WIPO decision whereby the complainant has to pay fair market value for the HostGator should they win. This would make a lot of these companies think twice before submitting to WIPO and for those who's domains are taken from them will at least get something. It is, as has been previously stated, far cheaper in most cases for them to WIPO instead of making a fair offer to the current owner..

I know if trademarked then they may be "entitled" to the HostGator but they should have either reg'd it themselves or be prepared to purchase it from the current owner. The way things are at the moment is just legalised theft IMO...

Comment #35

He should have developed the name really instead of parking the name. It would reduced chances of losing the name...

Comment #36

The man who owns 500 acres overlooking Manhattan because he likes the view.

Of course the mega-shopping center is a "better" use. Take that land from the grubby squatter, give it to the fat pigs to whom it should belong. It would save everybody gasoline.

Some of you guys are thinking that there is fairness in the business world....???.

Remember inc.mobi? - only difference is that Elequa has the money to fight back. And with his huge stake in short domains he probably needs to push this as far as the Supreme Court, if need be. This may be what sets the table for the future...

Comment #37

Wouldn't be a GREAT idea to tackle a big organisation as Lufthansa...

Comment #38

Oh, what bad news! That is such a poor decision. Why not? It's his property, and he has every right to get it back. I hope he does fight this as far along as possible...

Comment #39

Exactly, like I said earlier. Just like eminent domain. If they want to take your property they have to pay fair market value...

Comment #40

I like being positive always and it is his HostGator name. But really this will go far beyond millions of dollars in the lawsuit...

Comment #41

If I had a real valuable HostGator name I would register a trademark using the .tld in it,.

Ie: LH.com , tm.

With all the extensions available it should be this way.....

Comment #42

Lets look at some areas of the WIPO interesting.

First one stating Parking not legitimate basically.

Complainant contends that Respondent currently uses the <lh.com> HostGator name to resolve to a web page that features Respondents OXiDE search engine and displays numerous sponsored links to third party websites relating to various subjects. Complainant contends that Respondent profits from receiving click-through fees for each misdirected user. The Panel finds that such use is not a use in connection with a bona fide offering of goods or services pursuant to Policy 4(c)(i), and that it is not a legitimate noncommercial or fair use pursuant to Policy 4(c)(iii). See Summit Group, LLC v. LSO, Ltd., FA 758981 (Nat. Arb.

14, 2006) (finding that the respondents use of the complainants LIFESTYLE LOUNGE mark to redirect Internet users to respondents own website for commercial gain does not constitute either a bona fide offering of goods or services pursuant to Policy 4(c)(i), or a legitimate noncommercial or fair use pursuant to Policy 4(c)(iii)); see also Golden Bear Intl, Inc. v. Kangdeock-ho, FA 190644 (Nat. Arb. Forum Oct.

Lim, FA 874447 (Nat. Arb. Forum Feb. 19, 2007) (finding that the respondent was not using a disputed HostGator name in connection with a bona fide offering of goods or services or a legitimate noncommercial or fair use by redirecting Internet users to a commercial search engine website with links to multiple websites that may be of interest to the complainants customers and presumably earning click-through fees in the process).

In this one the MARK DOES NOT NEED TO PREDATE REGISTRATION so regging a HostGator in 2002 and someone having no mark until 2007 as an example for what is being implied here. Moreover, the Panel notes, Complainants rights in the LH mark need not predate Respondents registration of the disputed HostGator name in order to satisfy the requirements of Policy 4(a)(i). See Javacool Software Dev., LLC v. Elbanhawy Invs., FA 836772 (Nat. Arb. Forum Jan.

WSM Domains, FA 933942 (Nat. Arb. Forum May 2, 2007) (A plain reading of 4(a)(i) imposes no burden on a Complainant to demonstrate that it has either exclusive right to a mark or that such rights predate the registration of a HostGator name.).

How is LH not a generic HostGator ?

Respondent engages in the mass acquisition of two-letter and three-letter HostGator names.

Respondents business model involves the indiscriminate acquisition and use of as many such HostGator names as possible.

Respondent claims that Hundreds if not thousands of entities seek to use the lh mark [sic] and have offered Respondent up to $1,000,000 U.S. dollars for it. The disputed HostGator name is identical to Complainants mark and is not generic...

Comment #43

How about creating a fund for days(they will come) like that, backed /managed by the DNOA...oh and don't forget the ribbon! :-).

Of course, there needs a lot of legal work to be done...and who is eligible etc...

Anyway, I just wonder how many free flights/air miles the panelist have received :-).

Cheers,.

Frank..

Comment #44

Generic names are products or services that can also be categories, processes, phrases, job titles, places and dictionary words.

Also known as Direct Navigation..

Comment #45

Right they said LH not a generic domain.

Respondent engages in the mass acquisition of two-letter and three-letter HostGator names.

Respondents business model involves the indiscriminate acquisition and use of as many such HostGator names as possible.

Respondent claims that Hundreds if not thousands of entities seek to use the lh mark [sic] and have offered Respondent up to $1,000,000 U.S. dollars for it.

The disputed HostGator name is identical to Complainants mark and is not generic...

Comment #46

He has the money to go after them if he wants to make an example out of them.....

Comment #47

Yes that is true.

That's the reason they hijacked the name. Right, would like to read updates as the case moves along...

Comment #48

This is very worrying..

So is there any defence at all to a negative WIPO ruling?.

No appeal process?.

From what i'm understanding here - it's not a good idea to offer your domains for sale?.

I'm just in the process of setting up a site with all my names listed, 2 character.coms, 3 letter.coms, one word .com's, 50 CVCV.com's, etc....

Now i'm being advised a perfectly legitimate trading business is in danger of having it's assets taken away for nothing - unbelievable.

This business is hard enough without having rodents stealing from you.

I really think all domainers large and small need to put their heads and resources together to find a way to fight these sort of decisions or at least level the playing field...

Comment #49

It just goes to show that you do NOT own ANY domains, they are simply rented and the landlords (wipo, icann etc) are acting on their and the big $$$$ corps own secret agendas! This industry is just getting started with such activity imho. This is just the beginning of such nefarious activity no doubt...

Comment #50

Food for a conspiracy theory in the making?.

I don't disagree - the Snowe bill is living proof that our assets are of complete unimportance.

The LH.com decision just predicts what's headed towards us. In all essence, and if I understood everything correctly, the LH ruling is just a Snowe bill executed before the actual bill has passed, correct?.

WIPO being a bit preemptive here, eh? Or to fuel the fire on the conspiracy theory - does the WIPO panel know something about the passing of the Snowe bill that we don't know?.

M...

Comment #51

Well I have just read the first page of this thread... they should have been given a huge payment at least for the domain, not just give it up with no compensation...

Comment #52

Organizations like this have been set up, yet the people running have no real idea about the domaining world. Maybe they should employ domainers, not morons who have never registered a HostGator in their life.

It's stupid how they can take a domain, because a company believes it belongs to them. If I claimed a company was mine, because it shared my name, where would I get? Nowhere.

There's got to be a bribe in this, in can't simply be that WIPO believe the HostGator is rightfully that companies, bulls**t!..

Comment #53

I disagree that they should have been given a huge payment for the domain, as that implies there was some aspect of the wipo that remained valid.

The only legitimate result of this should have been a rejection of the hijacking attempt, plain and simple. I would certainly hope this gets reversed, and that the culprits get a humiliating, financially brutalizing WWE-styled smackdown - anything less leaves the door open for large scale sniping...

Comment #54

He was offered $1Million for the HostGator people did offer to buy the HostGator and 1million bucks is a fair deal..

Domains do not belong to the registrants and yes it can be taken away if abused..

If you are hoarding many lll.coms and ll.coms that is just hijacking the market IMHO..

Its called GREED..

Comment #55

First come first serve..

So you're saying somebody who spends a lot of effort working towards earning a lot of money should have that money taken from them, because they own too much?..

Comment #56

The thing that's interesting is they made an offer to buy it and Elequa only wanted to lease the HostGator out. That should be proof to the WIPO if they felt they were the rightful owner why did they offer to buy it ?

Comment #57

He doesn't sell. he's come on record and said before. his privilege..

I respect that. that will also help his defence. lufthansa are gonna get a rocket up their german arse lol.

I have no great respect for him for his empire or anything as he's not self made, he has an incredibly rich family by all accounts, however what he invests in is his business, he's hurting no-one and he develops too, he is slowly building up sites.

Btw, his buyouts of lll.biz, lll.info have raised prices for us all don't forget.

Although his biz investment is not looking too sexy..

Comment #58

I don't know why he offered to lease it? Regardless, the decision has wrong written all over it. Lufthansa is entitled to Lufthansa.com, that I can understand and agree to... But LH.com?..

Comment #59

The Internet was not created for some specific people to milk it. It was created for legit uses...

Comment #60

Yup, we've seen this before, normally the panel get it right when they see people have bmade approaches to buy then had a hissy fit which is what 'those dicks lufthansa the incompetent airline' (just want that indexed lol)..

Another sign the 'panel' are at best incompetent.

This will get overturned I'm sure, shame all the lawyers and wipo dont get fined after, bitches..

Comment #61

Who are you to say what is legit, there is nothing illegitimate about registering domains so you are way off...

Comment #62

Thats right! All these prices are just fabricated due to one person owning all these domains. They are false values and can crash at any time if policy changes on how many domains a person can own...

Comment #63

I love when people pontificate about what the internet "was created for" there is no one it is only your opinion. And if you look at stats depending on who puts the stats out but either 20 % or 1 in 5 or 25% 1 in 4 searches is for porn. So I guess the internet was created as a masturbatory tool...

Comment #64

Okay, same logic, your house was not built for you to keep it, if a business wants to build a hog farm there, that's their right. Plus, if you won't sell, they can take it for free.

Again, same logic, I create a business, you decide you should own that business because it was a great idea. You take my shares from me just because you think you should own it instead of me. Hmmm, how is that fair again?.

Suggesting that a business enterprise is not legitimate use would cut internet usage by 99.9999999999999 percent, and virtually NO ONE could own a HostGator name...

Comment #65

Why am I way off? I did not say you cant register domains. I said it is wrong to hoard the market for your own greed. Domains do not belong to you it is not a fixture but a leased commodity..

Comment #66

Thats sick, I really hope he sues the shit out of them - scamming wan***s He previously lost a very good generic "because" he moved the name.

A guy from Hawaii also lost a GEO name for basically not using it for years, ie: not developing or parking it.

It seems the only way to protect your names is to develope them and make sure it does'nt have anything to do with any TM holders.

Sucks big time that something so generic can be TMarked.

...

Comment #67

A business is legit. A service is legit. But hoarding names is not. Most of the better domains are in the hands of owners who park them. What use is that to the net?..

Comment #68

DOMI you ought to worry about making good on bids you make and not reneging on the bid. http://www.namepros.com/446484-d-d-d-com-2.html..

Comment #69

If you own any vacant land please fill up a quick claim deed to have it transferred to me so that I can build a home on it. If you paid monies for the land I am very sorry because I want it for free so I can provide highest and best use of it. Domi, your statement is utter nonsense...

Comment #70

That is the sad part That has nothing to do with this conversation..

As a mod you should be more professional..

Comment #71

In your opinion, understand you are one of 6.6 billion your opinion means nothing more, nothing less.

No it makes perfect sense you are criticizing a legitimate domainer in a HostGator forum and you reneg on a bid...

Comment #72

The bid has nothing to do with this debate. Anyways that was Handled between me and the seller. How is he a legitimate domainer? what is he doing other than hoarding domains for his own personal game?..

Comment #73

Hoarding anyone is allowed to reg as many domains as they like there are no restrictions or limits. So who appointed you to tell others how the internet is run ?

Comment #74

I am giving my Opinion. Nothing more nothing less...

Comment #75

What are the names?!.

I'm really curious how can anyone lose a name they just leave lying around doing nothing.....

Comment #76

He certainly does have a legit business: it's an investment. If he owned a corner of the gold market, and was sitting on that investment, would you take it from him because you wanted to make jewelry?..

Comment #77

Well you stated your opinion as fact, that what he was doing was not what the internet was created for. When there is no one reason, there are no limited 100 reasons. The fact is the registering of domains is perfectly legal and legit. NO opinion that is a 100 % complete fact...

Comment #78

..... welcome to the world of DOMAINERS! Where people make a business out of owning MORE than one domain. Whether this be for the sheer thrill of owning them or they develop their assets, is secondary. Which gets to point that if you own more than one HostGator that's not immediately developed, you're also hoarding them for the your personal game. Just a little "nudge" to think before making accusations.

If you own a piece of land, it's yours. In Texas you're entitled to enforce your property line with violence if need arises. If you rent an apartment, no landlord can evict you if you pay your rent on time and you're otherwise in compliance with regulations. No matter the point of view - whether you own a HostGator or merely rent it, IF you're paying your annual dues and don't violate any laws, it's no one's fair game to take. If one applies the concept of generic abbreviations onto the HostGator concept, it should be even less possible to steal someone's assets as there's no valid reason.

Or, point in case: www.gmail.de - many will remember the story - the same/closely similar rules apply.

M...

Comment #79

LOL... Because it's not productive and unfair to legit business..

Comment #80

I can't remember the exact names Izy - The one owned by the guy in Hawaii was definitely a british town or city.

I'll see if I can find the wipo links but it will be tricky finding them again so don't hold your breath !.

...

Comment #81

I also have just finished a site with part of my names up for sale, but thinking about it, what about for example buydomains.com? How can they get away with having all their names with ads and all are for sale.

So far it seems that you can only park pure geo names, as country and city names can not be TMed, and pure generic names. All other names are better to 'unpark'?.

And would having a valuable, non generic name, 'unparked' be enough?.

Of course developing might be better, although many here have hundreds or even thousands of (valuable) names and developing many of them is practically impossible.

Would having a 'coming soon' page instead of 'unparking' or even a simple picture like for example ozb.com already be a better alternative then 'unparked' with really nothing to see?..

Comment #82

Wow, I think DOMI should re-read what he's saying..

His logic is terribly flawed, if what he was saying was the case - How would businesses work? There'd be no competition, nothing...

Comment #83

Great analogy.

He took the risk, he bought the domains, they should be his to do what he pleases with... This is a very bad precedent to set and if it's not rectified may very well encourage even more reverse hijacking... I can see some unethical domainers jumping aboard, creating corporations with 2-3 letter acronyms and taking a chance on a few UDRPs..

Comment #84

Under construction is the best bet..

And just forget about everything else lets just move on BTW.... I had you all going for a bit eh??.

I agree with everyone here lol!..

Comment #85

And you're not into domaining for personal gain?.

If you had as much money as him you would probably invest into a large percentage of certain markets too.

I really hesitated in replying to anything you said because of the legitimacy of the nature of your comments. I will most likely not respond to your response.

EDIT: Just read your last post. Whatever dude. You have too much time on your hands...

Comment #86

Here's a thought - what if LH.com was the ONLY HostGator he owned? Then he's hoarding 1 HostGator that is not being used in the best interest of the internet, right? Not right? If not right, then what's the magic number of domains 1 person can own and park without it considered to be hoarding domains? Who is supposed to come up with that number and how can they base that number on a logical argument for the better of the internet? Also, how is one to determine legitimate use of the name? What if LH.com was the only name he owned and he put a personal non-business site on it? It's not a business so he still is hoarding it and deserves to lose it?.

If owning 1 name and not "legitimately using" it aka parking it or putting nothing on it is hoarding, then that makes YOU (nor any of us) no different than HIM and thereby indicates we all have the right for our domains to be taken from us by companies on the simple basis that they have more money and can afford to bully us.

So...which is it? The impossible-to-determine "magic number" of domains that people are supposed to own, or all of us including you are hoarding names and are not doing what's best for the internet?..

Comment #87

Does this mean I can claim samryan.com because it's my name and it's parked at the moment?.

Does this mean I can claim sam.com because it's my name and it's parked at the moment?..

Comment #88

Isn't this type of magic number split what Google is doing to us already? If you have more domains parked or inactive than developed and with truly unique content, you're considered a "hoarder" and get slammed by Google?.

I suppose that there is something like Judge & Jury in the form of one corporation or administrative panel - Wipo. In which case, numbers don't matter, usage matters and how we are being TOLD that we're allowed to use domains.

M...

Comment #89

Funny you should mention this. I have a site specifically set up for the sale of my own domains. Last week I noticed in the log that the site was visited by both Uspto and Wipo within 1 hour of each other!..

Comment #90

Well I found one of them but when I just checked the whois it looks like he still owns it, he must have fought the case and won.

My mistake Izy, it was the NATIONAL ARBITRATION FORUM and not WIPO (I'm not sure what the difference is TBH).

"The Panel finds that Respondent has registered the <colchester.com> HostGator name in bad faith because Respondent has made no use of the HostGator name since it registered the HostGator name in 1999".

DECISION.

Having established all three elements required under the ICANN Policy, the Panel concludes that relief should be GRANTED. Accordingly, it is ordered that the <colchester.com> HostGator name be TRANSFERRED from Respondent to Complainant http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/588409.htm.

...

Comment #91

There should be a major verdict to protect the HostGator owner. And I would like to see the owner of LH.com go all the way to set a starndard to protect us..

Comment #92

Owners are frequently not given just compensation for the properties in eminent HostGator cases. I agree with your intent, but the trend is that this just compensation simply does not happen in practice! The "takings clause" of the Fifth Amendment only applies in the US, but "eminent domain-like" arguments (similar to the Fifth Amendment eminent HostGator example) now seem to be taking place on a worldwide scale. In the US the "takings clause" is routinely abused using arguments similar to the example in the post by accentnepal. The part about " nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" has been twisted to make subtle distincions between "legitimate use" and "better use". The part about "public use" in the past meant roads, bridges, etc., where the government has *always* had the right of eminent HostGator (with just compensation)... "public use" has now been twisted to mean "shopping malls" as opposed to roads, bridges, etc.

This is a frightening trend on a world scale. It means that nobody can ever truly own rights to property of any kind. Let's avoid arguments about "property" and "ownership", and simply agree that we do own the *rights* to renew a HostGator name, and can sell those rights. That shopping mall example that used eminent HostGator to acquire the property could in principle be applied to the new mall owner, and some *other* buyer could propose a use that supplies an even greater tax base, thereby taking away the property from the mall owner. The subtle differentiation between "legitimate use" and "better use" of private property is a truly slippery slope, and WIPO is at the forefront of this abuse.

... in other words: WIPO sucks, and is now making decisions based on "legitimate use" and "better use", setting themselves up as the sole arbiter of quality of use...

Comment #93

Seems wipo doesn't like the guy. Hopefully his other domains won't get pillaged now.

A simple site about LederHosen might have saved his domain.

How much is it to trademark a lll.com. I have 2 that are just random letters (no trademark appears)?..

Comment #94

I think Elequa will fight this as far as is needed - he is one of, if not the, largest holder of short domains in the world and if he lets this stand he will be facing a long line of companies trying to take every HostGator he owns. He has no choice but to fight, and fortunately he appears to have the resources to do so. I hope he gets the best attorneys, the results of this case may set the precedent for years to come.

Doni makes an important point - there is a large segment of the public that does not appreciate what we are doing, just as those of wealth are always considered hoarders. Revolutions can and do sometimes take away their assets (although the "distribution to the poor" part does not usually seem to follow.) It is a whole lot easier to steal than to earn, and easier still if one can place a cloak of respectability around oneself.

BTW, DNF seems to be mostly ignoring this topic ....??? That is a new one to me. Have not noticed any problem with my websites...

Comment #95

Now I've seen everything.

...Bad faith because Respondent has made no use of the HostGator name since it registered the HostGator name in 1999.

Reps added!..

Comment #96

Cheers, I'll find that other one, I think it was a place in Switzerland I visited years ago, but I can't remember the name right now.

I'm just checking the map to jog my memory !.

...

Comment #97

This part is nuts IMO you do not have to predate the reg. So I can sit look at a HostGator and say wow LL.com parked I am going to create an LLC, $400 get a tm $400 and then UDRP LL.com totally insane IMO.

Moreover, the Panel notes, Complainants rights in the LH mark need not predate Respondents registration of the disputed HostGator name in order to satisfy the requirements of Policy 4(a)(i). See Javacool Software Dev., LLC v. Elbanhawy Invs., FA 836772 (Nat. Arb. Forum Jan. 2, 2007) (holding that a complainant need not show that it's rights in it's mark predate the respondents registration of the disputed HostGator name in order to satisfy Policy 4(a)(i)); see also CDG v.

Arb. Forum May 2, 2007) (A plain reading of 4(a)(i) imposes no burden on a Complainant to demonstrate that it has either exclusive right to a mark or that such rights predate the registration of a HostGator name.)...

Comment #98

This kind of shit annoys the **** out of me.

We need to take some major steps let the general public know about what is going on. We can not be silent here. The recent news of sales like pizza.com made national headlines, and the general public are beginning to become aware that certain domains are extremely value personal property.

People will be pissed off when they find out that a major multinational has ripped off an individual to this magnitude.

Please start submitting this story everywhere, slashdot, digg... newpapers etc..

I wouldn't even mind we organized a one day boycott of lufthansa... I would forward every traffic HostGator I owned to a anti-lufthansa page...

Comment #99

IMO LL.coms .net or .orgs are really dangerous domains to buy even LLL.

Unless it's for personal use...n not for reselling purposes then it shud be safe.one of my fren have a LL.org or .net I forgot which but he also lose that name in wipo coz he offered that HostGator for sale.

This is making us domainers a hard time .. imagine all the countries going tru wipo to take back their cctld extension like malaysia vs my.com or usa vs usa.com it will simply be endless.....

Comment #100

Don't forget that wipo is an arbitration procedure, so it's pretty much at the discretion of the panelists...

Comment #101

The general public isn't going to rally behind HostGator squatters. There is a lot of animosity towards domainers, especially among the Slashdot crowd because most of them at one point or another have went looking for domains for legitimate projects only to find they're all being squatted on...

Comment #102

I see your point, but this isn't a squatting issue, anyone with a valuable HostGator should be concerned about what wipo is doing. If this was a story that mainly affected portfolio holders, like verisign's abuse of monopoly power and raising prices of .com, then yeah I can see a backlash against squatters.

But this is a story that affects all HostGator owners. It doesn't matter if you own one HostGator or 100,000. I am willing to bet that the majority of the slashdot crowd own at least one domain...

Comment #103

I find it utterly fascinating that land owners have been looked up to for centuries. In medieval times, they where given titles such as Baron, etc. Nowadays, if someone states that he/she is a land owner, and they are selling land, no one flinches but usually congratulates them to owning land.

Virtual property ownership is obviously not up to the same standards, but seen as a criminal act. Nothing really new in this post - i'm just still amazed with the double standards that are being applied to us.

M...

Comment #104

I put it down to people not understanding the true potential of the internet. A lot of people only come into contact with the internet through their children etc. who only use the internet for simply watching videos' and talking to friends. This gives the majority of people, in our societies which hold position the idea that the internet is a thing that's just for kids and holds little merit in our modern day society...

Comment #105

The point of the WIPO is to protect intellectual property, if someone is squatting on a TM HostGator they shouldn't get $1 for it. The WIPO shouldn't force TM holders to compensate squatters, they should just stop making stupid decisions and being a vessel for reverse hijacking...

Comment #106

Squatting is such a vague term anyways. Domains should be equal to owning physical property and/or land. If I am Century21 or ReMax and I want to buy up 5,000 acres somewhere for $1000 an acre, and then turn around and build a sub-division on it, in a prime location. And then turn around a year later and build houses on that land, and sell each acre for $30,000 an acre, is this fair. You're damn right it's fair!!.

So why shouldn't I or anyone be able to horde (like domi said) 1,000 domains and then use them solely for redirecting traffic. This makes your main developed site get more traffic, and in turn worth more.

Billboards are a superb example for redirection. You are sitting at a red light and look up and see a McDonald's billboard. For some reason you become slightly hungry, and a mile down the road, you turn in to buy some food. Is this billboard a waste. To some people it is. But for the people that are being paid by McDonald's to lease that sign for that month would disagree.

For the record.......... I am a horder of hundreds of names and I'm proud of it. I just wish I jumped on the band wagon 10 years ago. Someday, 10 years from now, new-comers to the HostGator world will say the same thing...

Comment #107

The idea of TM holders being able to take domains which could mean anything is scary. That said, hoarding HostGator names is a waste and I think bringing in some rules in regards to the quantity an individual or company can own wouldn't be a bad idea (although maybe impossible to police).

If we're using real world analogies, imagine every home in a city is owned by one individual who refuses to sell any of them, even for fair prices.

Although domains aren't businesses, it's also somewhat anti-competitive for one individual to own too many HostGator names of a particular type imo.

I think if domainers want their assets to be treated as legitimate assets then their needs to be some rules brought in to introduce balance and fairness...

Comment #108

If every home was owned by one guy in that city, then nobody would live there any nobody would even care.

Domains aren't business? Well they are a $1x,xxx,xxx,xxx market. That is bigger than some other niche business markets I could name off.

And towards that last comment... is there any limit too how much real estate one can own?..

Comment #109

Well, re. the city analogy, you're saying people wouldn't want to live there if that was where the nice houses, jobs and opportunities were? (Doesn't really equate of course, but in terms of a domain, all the good names). Instead you're forced to rent or live on the outskirts of the city because one rich individual owns all the good property. He won't sell it either, even though he isn't putting it to good use. You wouldn't care?.

Domain names themselves aren't a business, even if domaining can be one.

Well, the last comment was mainly in regards to anti-competitiveness (regarding which there ARE rules).

But there are also limits to how much realestate can be owned in the real world - think of an airport. Single carriers aren't usually allowed to buy or rent all the terminals because this stifles competition. The same applies to other industries in the real world.

Even if we equate HostGator names to houses there are practical limits. If a corporation decided to buy half the available houses in a city there would be an outcry and they would be legislated against.

If domainers want their property to be respected there needs to be limits to how many domains can be owned imo...

Comment #110

I am shocked. I would be interested in following the development...

Comment #111

If I were elequa I would get all my oil buddies together and buy the company, fire everyone, dissect it and park the planes in my backyard before I gave up the name...

Comment #112

WIPO you have lost sooo much credit in the eyes of many domainers.. WTF are you thinking? Yeah, I would'nt be surprised if they were bribed or had uterior motives...

Comment #113

Currently none except to dispute it in a court of competent jurisdiction, which.

Is in the U.S. in this case. You know, I recently read an interesting take from a lawyer on such. He said.

That nowadays it's not a question of who owns what, but what rights all the.

Involved parties have agreed upon for that particular item.

Your rights are only as good as your ability to enforce it. Unfortunately rights.

Are challenged every other day, especially by those who seem to be in much.

Greater position to do so.

Should Elequa have changed lawyers? IBM...AOL...GE...are they not trademarks as well despite being generic letters,.

Long before HostGator names came into existence?.

Folks, try not to confuse "law" with justice. Such things are intended to try to.

Resolve disputes without resorting to bloodshed, although they can be abused.

Just like everything else in life...

Comment #114

"Code Blue...paging Dr. Berryhill to spank some WIPO ass...Stat...".

M...

Comment #115

Yep, radio in air support. Time for the Berryhill Big Guns..

Comment #116

I resolved the IP addresses to hostnames which consists of a local hostname and the HostGator name. In this case the HostGator names were - wipo.int & uspto.gov I agree but the difference here is that the above companies are commonly known by those particular letters. In the Lufthansa case I have never heard anyone say LH in place of Lufthansa, and if anyone had said to be "I am flying LH today" I would have said, "WTF you talking about!"..

Comment #117

So guys, How do we prevent such things from happening ? .

Be our own registrar ? and have total control of the domain...

Comment #118

Yeah, worst case scenario is you get your ICANN license revoked, but you still own the million dollar HostGator right ?

Comment #119

It doesn't matter. Part of the registrar's agreement requires complying with a.

UDRP decision upon receipt of such. (or something like that...).

If it's your HostGator name within your registrar and you received a UDRP notice.

To either cancel or transfer but you don't follow it, you risk the other party to.

Complain to ICANN about it and have your registrar accreditation nuked...

Comment #120

LOL, well it's 250k to apply for the license, but the HostGator cost 1 million..

I rather keep the domain, and nuked the accreditation.

However so far, the only registrar I ever heard got nuked was RegisterFly case. and that was after THOUSANDS of complaints...

Comment #121

Err, if the HostGator name's with your registrar and it's accreditation gets nuked,.

You won't be able to access the HostGator name until such time...

Comment #122

Ouch. Looks like I have learned something new today.

How about applying a TM for the HostGator ? is that a good way out of this sort of problems ?

Comment #123

Yes. But you need one before this happens to your domain...

Comment #124

I guess nowadays, if you want to buy a ll.com, it would be cheaper for you to open up a corporation and get the name for free! What BS!..

Comment #125

Every airline is known to ARC the Airlines Reporting Corporation and every travel agency and airport in the world by a 2 character IATA code and a 3 number code called a carrier number.

I believe Lufthansa's number is 220. Does this mean they will go after the owner of the 220.com HostGator name also?.

Or what about British Airways, are they going to pursue BA.com? Or American Airlines, do they have a right to AA.com? Does Finnair have a right to AY.com?.

This is totally ridiculous!!!! How far will it go?.

WIPO needs to get their head out of there arse and see the big picture!..

Comment #126

They own it They own it They don't own it yet..

Comment #127

HA!! I didn't realize that.. wow.. Thanks!.

So does this mean that every airline in the world is entitled to there respective 2 character .com ?

If that is the case then every 2 character .com will eventually be owned by the airlines.? WTF...

Comment #128

Well then that is GREAT! The airlines buying them is good, WIPO stealing them and giving to the airlines is BAD...

Comment #129

I respect companies that do it the legit way...

Comment #130

This is incredibly depressing. I always admired elequa because it's clear he's a true collector, he does it out of passion. I'm ready to pen a letter, who do I write to?.

It's an outrage!.

The return of the Robber Barons?..

Comment #131

Here's the PDF for the federal court case against Lufthansa: http://www.loffs.org/fma-v-lufthansa...-complaint.pdf..

Comment #132

Many of those airline codes are also US states and/or country postal codes (also used for their HostGator extension). OMG ... a respondent actually getting the benefit of the doubt. I thought it was "guilty until proven innocent". Ahhh ... breathe the fresh air.

Yet, this whole deal undoubtedly cost the HostGator owners a lot of money (and they do not seem wealthy) and a whole lot of stress...

Comment #133

Having read it I think Lufthansa are on a loser here- they will come out of this rather badly - I hope - and the wipo panel will look pretty stupid..

Comment #134

In Lufthansa's defense, they tried many times over several years to buy the domain, FMA refused to even discuss it. That's of course not an excuse, if it's not for sale then it's not for sale but they did try. And it's a pretty crappy policy to completely refuse discussion at all, Lufthansa didn't have a whole lot of choices here. Either forget about it altogether or call WIPO, and they didn't want to forget about it...

Comment #135

They have have an amazing case on their hands. No possible way they can lose. FMA will be the owner in the end...

Comment #136

Well - in FMA's defense ... He has always stated none of his domains are for sale Anyone who knows of him can attest to that.

I just don't see why anyone would say this isn't generic is my biggest problem with the whole situation. Whats next ? Descendants of the creators of the English Language will come after all English domains ? As already stated - There are many Brands and Generic terms using these same initials...

Comment #137

Right. I'm not defending all of this, just pointing out that this isn't as malicious as it's being portrayed. It wasn't "hey let's see if we can save a few million and hijack this domain", I think it was more out of desperation because all other avenues were roadblocked...

Comment #138

The company's original name was Deutsche Luft Hansa Aktiengesellschaft, that's why they want the name badly...

Comment #139

Wow....I especially liked the bit about Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.

And they are now going after the "Lufthansa" trademark, too.

This will be interesting, and should also draw some media attention. At least I hope so...

Comment #140

Maybe a thing with few people is they think a so-called generic or descriptive.

Word or letters is generic or descriptive for everything and anything. They do.

Not work that way.

Using one of my previous examples, GE may be generic or descriptive for just.

A pair of letters. But are they generic or descriptive for lighting products and.

Financial services?.

In this case, it so happens the complainant was able to prove they do have a.

Trademark for the letters LH for their services. And it also so happens that the.

Panel "finds that such use is not a use in connection with a bona fide offering.

Of goods or services pursuant to Policy", even though one dissented.

Measures like UDRP and a civil suit are ideally intended to resolve disputes. Of.

Course, since we all live in the real world... That's also what I was thinking. It also just so happens there are a couple of.

Other decisions by various panelists that are consistently...questionable.....

Comment #141

Reading the pdf, it's painfully clear that the Lufthansa has mainly succeeded because they've managed to throw their heavy weight around. If a corporation doesn't know it's own history, maybe they have a bigger problem than reverse high jacking a DN that doesn't pertain to them in the first place.

Franky, even though aviation has always been a huge interest in my life, I wouldn't have made the connection to Lufthansa if someone had asked me "What does LH stand for?" without mentioning anything aviation related..

If this decision should stand after the trial, what's going to prevent the next company that can/could be abbreviated as "LH" to come after the domain?.

At USPTO.gov I found 87 Records referring to TMs of "LH", none of them is referring to Lufthansa upon first glance. (i may have missed it though as I didn't go through each and every one)..

This is just a huge mess, with a decision gone completely wrong and consequences that will, once again shed a bad light on domainers as the general public will see this is as "there's an internet nobody that's trying to hurt a reputable airline".

M...

Comment #142

LMAO - that would sort em out !!.

Yeah. that'll be me, look out !!.

...

Comment #143

LH is not a LV like in Louis Vuitton case where LV is a part of branding for decades.

It is good that this case is going before jury...

Comment #144

This is an important thread for the future of all domainers. I try to develop all my domains, even if it takes a while. Loosing a HostGator because there is an uncertainty?.

Not good.....

Comment #145

So what is the update now, did he win back the HostGator ?

Comment #146

How fast is the American Judiciary system?? I wasn't expecting anything to happen before 2009...

Smart of them to try this in New York...they are probably hoping to get a Jewish judge, who won't be awfully pleased with the Nazi references in Lufthansa's original complaint....man, what where they thinking??..

Comment #147

The wheels of justice turn slowly. I wouldn't be surprised if this drags on for years...

Comment #148

The judge in this case: http://www.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=1226.

A little more info on the judge: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/bu...=1&oref=slogin http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0804203325.jpg http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1154..._law_more_news.

Started back on 3/17 - notice of appearance for Lufthansa was only at the end of last week.

Seems to me that they have put a few too many of their eggs in the "1928 vs. Post WWII" basket, as it seems a little too shifty of an argument to base the entire COA on, but I wish them the best.

-Allan..

Comment #149

Well, it seems has just the right kind of expertise for this (from the Wall Street Journal article Allan mentioned):..

Comment #150

Well heres a ridiculous idea I thought of, but it makes some sense.

The Judge or someone else with power in this case was probably paid by Lufthansa.

Here were their choices:.

1) Lufthansa pays $1 million for the domain.

Or.

2) Lufthansa pays of $100,000 in bribes.

Did they choose #2?..

Comment #151

No, they've tried for years to buy the HostGator (presumably for $1m+) but it just wasn't for sale at any price...

Comment #152

So that's more of a reason to choose #2..

Comment #153

It is a one million name, agreed.

FMA didn't develop it, why did they refuse an offer?..

Comment #154

Feel sorry for him, at least a million fly away.....

Comment #155

A disgrace, plus lufthansa is one word in german anyway .. so is represented by LH no more than LF or LT.

I would love to see this one go to court.

Wipo more like Wimpo..

Comment #156

If you read back thru rhe thread you will find it has gone to court........

Comment #157

That's disgraceful, holding domains for profit when real companies want to use them..

Comment #158

Someone needs to do something about it. wipo wipo..

Comment #159

I looked up some pics on Google. I must say, the man looks of Jewish descent... and Kaplan is a Jewish name.

Hitler's favorite airline!?!? Are they insane?..

Comment #160

I am as well. The case (I read most of it) was simply stomach churning. Very sad-but evidently the original decision was overturned. Can anyone verify that for sure, so we all know?..

Comment #161

I suspect the WIPO decision has not been overturned - just that the name stays with the owner until the outcome of the pending court case is decided.

...

Comment #162

As John B mentioned, FMA filed suit prior to the UDRP decision. Apparently it.

Got a court order to keep the registration despite the subsequent UDRP thing.

Besides, it states in UDRP that court decisions take precedence over them...

Comment #163

I do not understand why all LL.COMs are not trademarked as a brands unto themselves. Surely, it would be easier to put a website online and the trademark the name. It seems a lot more cost effective than fighting in court after somebody tries to hijack the name...

Comment #164

A Trademark must be tied to a SPECIFIC Good or Service, not just a name......

Comment #165


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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