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Equivs to Oly E-510?
Hi all, yet another DSLR newbie here - I like my little Oly mu700 but I'm getting frustrated with P&S. I want something that takes better pictures and which I can learn to adjust..

I take a lot of pictures travelling abroad (so nothing super-heavy). I like people, signs, street art, sculptures, house interiors and interesting plants, insects and animals which cross my path. I love taking close-ups (I prefer quirky close-ups of famous attractions rather than full shots) and am looking forward to being able to adjust focus area/depth..

I don't take pictures in all weathers, nor am I much into scenery - if it can take pictures which do justice to the beauty of the scene, that's great, but I don't go looking for good shots of mountainsides and the like. I rarely take pictures of sports players so the most action we're looking at is a fluttering flag or a street musician. Pictures are unlikely to be printed bigger than my 12"x12" scrapbook pages unless I really love them..

After talking to a couple of friends and looking at online reviews I have been considering the Oly E-510. Personally I like the stabiliser, as I hate shots being blurry. I've also heard good things about the kit lenses; I need something good to start off with as I want to learn to use the camera before I buy a ton of equipment for it. The main criticism seems to be performance at high ISO - does this matter for what I want it for? I also see it doesn't have a focus assist light - I take pics both indoors and outdoors, and when it comes to indoors I really want to be able to take good photos in not-so-great lighting (or at least, not just have the option of dark & obscure v. bleached with flash). Should I look for one with the extra light or buy an attachment, or does the camera compensate for this OK? For example, would a picture of someone with a birthday cake (candlelight only) come out decently?.

I'm going to the shop this week to try it out (esp want to look at viewfinder size, as that's mentioned a lot and my current camera doesn't even have one so I'm out of practice). However, I don't know what other models I should be looking at alongside the E-510. Amazon are selling the Oly for 430, btw, and I wouldn't want to go much above that. My friend has the E-500 and said the E-510 was the new one, but I see there's also an E-520 .....

Comments (54)

Ok here is what you said..

After talking to a couple of friends and looking at online reviews I have been considering the Oly E-510. Personally I like the stabiliser, as I hate shots being blurry. I've also heard good things about the kit lenses; I need something good to start off with as I want to learn to use the camera before I buy a ton of equipment for it. The main criticism seems to be performance at high ISO - does this matter for what I want it for?.

Lets take that apart a little. First image stabilization DOES NOT mean you will not get blurry shots. IS will HELP compensate for camera shake at slower shutter speeds. It will buy you a couple of stops and that is all. It does NOTHING for freezing an object in motion. So don't think you will not get blurry shots if you do not set up the camera properly.



As for high ISO shots. The camera will take high ISO shots you will just get greater noise then with a Canon or Nikon. However this does not significantly affect most prints and you can certainly mitigate the issue in post processing. At the bottom of this post are a couple of high ISO shots for you to look at. Also I have a test area set up at the following URL..

Http://www.pbase.com/maddogmd11/iso_and_is.

Also you mentioned the focus assist. I suggest getting an FL36 flash that has focus assist..

Here are the shots..

Jim.

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Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #1

Thanks for the response - I know the stabiliser won't solve every problem but I think it would act as a good back up for those shots I only have one, quick chance to get and may not have had time to prepare for..

I notice that Nikon has a custom auto ISO setting which might be more helpful for beginners like me. It also has an assist light; I don't really want to buy any add-ons with the camera straight off, it's expensive enough getting one kit! I tried a friend's D40 and looking around that's probably my other choice v. the Oly..

I've also been trying to get my head round the 4/3 system - still not entirely sure what it means but it seems one of the disadvantages can be the greater depth of field. One of the things I really want to be able to do is take close-ups of e.g. that bug on a flower with all of the background an undistracting blur. Does that mean 4/3 isn't right for me, or only right for me if I buy a macro lens? On the one hand, I'm upgrading from a P&S and any DSLR is going to wow me with it's capabilities. On the other, I don't want to buy into a system which isn't going to do what I want it to in the future. Any advice?..

Comment #2

The main criticism seems to be performance at high ISO - doesthis matter for what I want it for?.

The high ISO performance is way better than any P&S camera. There are other dSLR with (slightly) better high ISO performance, but the e510 is not limiting for your indicated application..

I also see it doesn't have afocus assist light -.

This is often implemented with the flash, check the review on the page. Even without the assist light modern dSLR focus well in bad light ( but slower than in good light)..

Instead of or in adition you might want to consider adding a fast lens ( apperture 2.8 or less)..

In general all modern dSLR will fit your application and will improve the IQ compared to your p&S. But keep the p&s anyhow, since dSLR do not have a video option..

For which one to choose: try out as many brands /types as possible. The biggest differences are between ergonomics not features & quality at the moment..

Cheers.

R...

Comment #3

Schmaud wrote:.

...In general all modern dSLR will fit your application and will improvethe IQ compared to your p&S. But keep the p&s anyhow, since dSLR donot have a video option..

That is no longer correct or, rather, is about to become incorrect. The Nikon D90 succesor to the D80 has yet to be formally announced but there are very strong rumours from reliable sources that it has high definition video (not just 640 x 480):.

Http://www.bythom.com/index.htm(see "The Nikon D80 Replacement... ").

There are high quality photos circulating that clearly show the microphone grill. Expect a pre- Photokina announcement and in the shops early October..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #4

Look at Canon 1000D, Pentax K200D, Nikon D40/60/80..

All the downsides of the Oly 510/520 are inherent to the 4/3rds standard which has a sensor 29% smaller than Nikon and most others:.

Small viewfinderLack of subject isolationHigh ISO noisePoorish dynamic range..

The Oly 510 itself is a decent camera within the limitations described above..

Read the Oly 410/420 reviews her and that of the 510..

Take a careful look at Jim's high ISO shots to help decide whether you can cope with 4/3rds. What you are looking for is what is not there (if you see what I mean) i.e the lack of detail which has had to be blurred away to eliminate noise..

Wheabout in the UK are you? I might be able to point you to a decent store..

Regarding the candle shot most modern DSLRs would give you an OK 5 x 7 at ISO 1600 using a really low light lens. e.g a f/1.4 prime. Oly do not make such a lens (and you may not like the prices of their f/2 lenses). But you could compromise and use some house lighting to supplement. To get a really good A4 shot of a candle lit birthday cake and young birthday child using only candle light you ideally need a Nion D700 or D3 and you will not like the price of those either!.

Hope that helps..

As I mentioned above the Nikon D80 is about to be replaced. You may find the ergonomics of that cam a delight. Prices are now quite low and about to get lower. There are lots of high ISO shots using the D80 (and D50) in my photogallery e.g here:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p1045531707/.

And here:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p43741400/.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #5

Zipporah wrote:.

I've also been trying to get my head round the 4/3 system - still notentirely sure what it means but it seems one of the disadvantages canbe the greater depth of field. One of the things I really want to beable to do is take close-ups of e.g. that bug on a flower with all ofthe background an undistracting blur. Does that mean 4/3 isn't rightfor me, or only right for me if I buy a macro lens? On the one hand,I'm upgrading from a P&S and any DSLR is going to wow me with itscapabilities. On the other, I don't want to buy into a system whichisn't going to do what I want it to in the future. Any advice?.

DOF is a function of the sensor size, subject distance, Focal Length , and Appature. However the OLY Field of View is more narrow then the Nikon so the image will appear more magnified. This does not strictly have anything to do with the dept of field but if you want to have the same field of view the oly would actually have a smaller focal length applied. I hope that is confusing enough. This is not much of a big deal for Macro. See the data below..

Here is some data for you. For the E510 using a 50mm Lens at F8.

Subject distance 1 ft.

Depth of fieldNear limit 0.99 ftFar limit 1.01 ftTotal 0.02 ft.

In front of subject 0.01 ft (49%)Behind subject 0.01 ft (51%).

Hyperfocal distance 68.5 ftCircle of confusion 0.015 mm.

For the Nikon using a 50mm Lens.

Subject distance 1 ft.

Depth of fieldNear limit 0.98 ftFar limit 1.02 ftTotal 0.03 ft.

In front of subject 0.02 ft (49%)Behind subject 0.02 ft (51%).

Hyperfocal distance 51.4 ftCircle of confusion 0.02 mm.

So the actual difference between these 2 cameras using the same focal length is close to 0. Below is a link to a DOF calculator for you to play with yourself..

Http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html.

Hope this helps and I have posted one of my few Macro shots so you can judge for yourself..

Jim.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #6

I think you would be better off with the depth of field table from the same source. It is easier to get an overview:.

Http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html.

Because of the different sensor size you have to be careful to compare like with like. For simplicity lets compare two portrait lenses. 75 mm would be about right on the Nikon/ Pentax etc systems (Canon is slightly different). That translates to 50mm for the Oly. I suggest you open two windows and put Olympus E510 and 50mm in one and Nikon D80 (or Pentax K20D. You will get the same) and 75mm in the other..

If we assume an upper body and head shot that would require a distance of about 10ft..

At 10 ft and 75mm f/2.8 a Nikon has a depth of field of 7.5 inches.At 10ft and 50mm f/2.8 the Oly has a DOF of 12".

You would need better than f/2 to get the same subject isolation with the Oly although both lenses would have your subject filling the viewfinder..

If we look at more common bottom end territory for the long end of kit lenses f/5.6 DOF on the Nikon gives 15 inches. On the Oly you would need to go down to f/3.5 to get the same DOF limit..

Hope that avoids too much confusion! It may matter to you. It may not..

P.s Another difference between Oly and most of the rest. The "rest" give 6 x 4 proportions to their shots. Oly uses 5 x 4. You may prefer that. I prefer to have a bigger difference between portrait and landscape orientation..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #7

The question was.

"One of the things I really want to be able to do is take close-ups of e.g. that bug on a flower with all of the background an undistracting blur. Does that mean 4/3 isn't right for me, or only right for me if I buy a macro lens?".

This is not a question about taking a portrait but about macro. I don't dispute the numbers that you had posted nor do I dispute the issue of differing focal length which I stated. The bottom line even in your numbers is the difference between 12 inches and 15 inches. I can't think of a time where that would be any problem for a posed portrait..

The larger issue is in shooting long not short (e.g. Macro) In Macro shots the difference is in tenths if not hundredths of an inch. In shooting long it is in feet. Since the OP originally stated that his concern was Macro that is what I dealt with..

Jim.

Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #8

My advice is to budget for the accessories you will need. Consider you'll need memory cards, a spare battery, a camera bag, and a padded neck strap is highly desirable..

To get the best from a slr you will have to post process your photo's on the computer. Most slr's give good results straight from the camera if you set everything up correctly. (One of the regulars here has a canned post about setting your camera up correctly) Beginners will make mistakes. Some mistakes are correctable after the fact to some degree..

When you do make mistakes you'll have to adjust the image on your computer. For that you'll need software...

Comment #9

Do you have a link to that post about setting up the camera? I've been looking at some accessories (bags and cards - is this a whole 'nother area for debate? I have an Olympus 1GB XD card for my current camera, that's all right now), but software will have to wait, I think - I'm not sure my Acer laptop would cope and I have no clue how to edit photos. I've never even used Photoshop!..

Comment #10

Zipporah wrote:.

Do you have a link to that post about setting up the camera?.

This one looks familiar.http://forums.dpreview.com/.../forums/readflat.asp?forum=1002&message=282.

I've.

Been looking at some accessories (bags and cards - is this a whole'nother area for debate? I have an Olympus 1GB XD card for my currentcamera, that's all right now), but software will have to wait, Ithink - I'm not sure my Acer laptop would cope and I have no clue howto edit photos. I've never even used Photoshop!.

I always like a spare memory card just in case I fill one up or it fails. You can probably find 2 and 4 GB cards for a reasonable price, buy a name brand and don't buy memory cards from ebay. There's reports for quite some time that many memory cards from ebay are fakes..

Most camera's come with software but do check on the details of their functionality and prerequisites. Some people are fine with using Google's Picassa to start with. There are other no cost and low cost options aside from photoshop. You don't have to spend a lot of money but you do have to be willing to put in the time if you want to get the most out of your images..

Do really consider a padded neck strap. If your camera isn't comfortable around your neck you either won't use it, or you won't use the camera strap. The camera strap has saved my gear from many accidents over the years. I like Lowepro, others like Optech straps. There are probably alternatives but those come up time again when someone here asks about neck straps.

With respect to camera bags I judge them by the quality of their nylon and zippers if they use zippers...

Comment #11

Http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=28275615.

Try this one, I think it will work better. Sorry..

BTW, I'd look at the Pentax K200d but I'm biased being a Pentax and Canon owner...

Comment #12

See this link for E-510 setup.

Http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/e510-rev.html.

As far as software the camera will come with basic editing software. I don't think you should even think about spending the dollars/pounds for Photoshop if you have never used editing software. While Photoshop is an outstanding program to say it is daunting for a beginner is a gross understatement. You don't learn to drive on a Formula 1. My advice is to use Oly Master which will do 95% of what you might want to do as a beginner and you can't be the price of 0. It should run fine on any PC bought in the last 5 or 6 years..

Once you learn what your doing you MAY want to upgrade your editing software. If you do I suggest that you go to Photoshop Essentials rather then the full program. It will do 99.5% of what an intermediate user would want and is 1/3 the cost of photoshop..

JimOlympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #13

Now I see why people take months to choose a camera - I think in the end I will just say oh sod it and go for the first one I was looking at! Poor performance at high ISO doesn't bother me *that* much; subject isolation concerns me more. There were some good shots in the review sample gallery but I noticed they were taken with a macro lens..

Amazon have the Oly E510 with two lenses at 420 - the Nikon D80 is around the 600 mark, which is a significant jump (I could wait, but I'm going to Greece in two weeks and would like to take the new camera). The D40 (one lens) is 'only' 250, though, which is very attractive..

I live on Tyneside, near Newcastle...

Comment #14

You'll be fine with your choice. Do get a spare battery and memory card for your trip to Greece..

Enjoy. Take photo's, and share them...

Comment #15

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Look at Canon 1000D, Pentax K200D, Nikon D40/60/80..

All the downsides of the Oly 510/520 are inherent to the 4/3rdsstandard which has a sensor 29% smaller than Nikon and most others:.

Small viewfinder.

A little smaller.

Lack of subject isolation.

Dependent on which lens one uses, as with ALL of the DSLRs you mentioned.

High ISO noise.

Simply not true. the E510 is on par with the other DSLRs. The nice thing about the E510/E410 as the follow-up cameras is the ability to adjust the noise filter. Off, Low, Medium , High..

Poorish dynamic range..

It's all relative. slightly less DR than others..

The Oly 510 itself is a decent camera within the limitationsdescribed above..

Read the Oly 410/420 reviews her and that of the 510..

Take a careful look at Jim's high ISO shots to help decide whetheryou can cope with 4/3rds. What you are looking for is what is notthere (if you see what I mean) i.e the lack of detail which has hadto be blurred away to eliminate noise..

Again, nice thing about being able to adjust the noise filter..

Wheabout in the UK are you? I might be able to point you to a decentstore..

Regarding the candle shot most modern DSLRs would give you an OK 5 x7 at ISO 1600 using a really low light lens. e.g a f/1.4 prime. Olydo not make such a lens (and you may not like the prices of their f/2lenses). But you could compromise and use some house lighting tosupplement. To get a really good A4 shot of a candle lit birthdaycake and young birthday child using only candle light you ideallyneed a Nion D700 or D3 and you will not like the price of thoseeither!.

Hope that helps..

As I mentioned above the Nikon D80 is about to be replaced. You mayfind the ergonomics of that cam a delight. Prices are now quite lowand about to get lower. There are lots of high ISO shots using theD80 (and D50) in my photogallery e.g here:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p1045531707/.

And here:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p43741400/.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/.

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #16

Me thinks you protest too much. We each have our bias. Chris is a pretty fair fellow. It's OK if we don't all reach the same conclusion based on the same input parameters..

OR.

The op has already decided to go with the 510. Quit while you're ahead. It's a fine camera and the stated objectives are within the performance envelope the op desires...

Comment #17

Mrxdimension wrote:.

Me thinks you protest too much. We each have our bias. Chris is apretty fair fellow..

Actually, I have found Chris to be very biased, and his opinions unfair. Olympus in particular seems to be his primary target. Therefore, the record should be set straight. Just one example, regarding his statement that the E510 has a small viewfinder. The same can be said about the 1000D. Of the alternatives he mentioned, the Pentax is the best of the bunch.

NOT an issue. Period. Sooooo, why sayanything about it. Subjest isolation??? Come on! Depends on the lens being used..

OR.

The op has already decided to go with the 510. Quit while you'reahead. It's a fine camera and the stated objectives are within theperformance envelope the op desires..

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #18

Maddogmd11 wrote:.

The question was.

"One of the things I really want to be able to do is take close-upsof e.g. that bug on a flower with all of the background anundistracting blur. Does that mean 4/3 isn't right for me, or onlyright for me if I buy a macro lens?".

This is not a question about taking a portrait but about macro. Idon't dispute the numbers that you had posted nor do I dispute theissue of differing focal length which I stated. The bottom line evenin your numbers is the difference between 12 inches and 15 inches. Ican't think of a time where that would be any problem for a posedportrait..

The larger issue is in shooting long not short (e.g. Macro) In Macroshots the difference is in tenths if not hundredths of an inch. Inshooting long it is in feet. Since the OP originally stated that hisconcern was Macro that is what I dealt with..

He also said in his original post:.

"I like people, signs, street art, sculptures, house interiors and interesting plants, insects and animals which cross my path. I love taking close-ups (I prefer quirky close-ups of famous attractions rather than full shots) and am looking forward to being able to adjust focus area/depth.".

As my opening words indicate my post gives an overview. With respect I found your post difficult to digest and I understand these things. This is the Beginner's Forum after all..

If you read my post again the difference is between 7.5 and 12 inches at 10ft f/2.8 or put another way a difference of 1.5 stops to get the same subject isolation. It is not as you state it to be a difference between 12 and 15 inches..

Those are objective facts. It is a difference inherent in the 4/3rds standard. It is a matter for the OP whether that matters to him..

For many casual photographers who just want something better than a P & S the greater depth of field of the 4/3rds standard is an advantage - It is more difficult to have your subject out of focus!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #19

Zipporah wrote:.

Now I see why people take months to choose a camera - I think in theend I will just say oh sod it and go for the first one I was lookingat! Poor performance at high ISO doesn't bother me *that* much;subject isolation concerns me more. There were some good shots in thereview sample gallery but I noticed they were taken with a macro lens..

Amazon have the Oly E510 with two lenses at 420 - the Nikon D80 isaround the 600 mark, which is a significant jump (I could wait, butI'm going to Greece in two weeks and would like to take the newcamera). The D40 (one lens) is 'only' 250, though, which is veryattractive..

I live on Tyneside, near Newcastle..

This link may help you:.

Http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/prod204.html.

You can check out cheapest prices for all cams. Of course not all stores appear but it does most of the legwork for you and gives you a price to compare..

I do not know any stores up your way. Sally Gohl who posts on the Nikon Forum lives Whitby way. She might know. I will have a word with her..

I rather like to have a store where I can go and shout at someone if something goes wrong (Though I have never needed to). Fotosense in Bolton has a good reputation and prices and a physical store if that helps:.

Http://www.fotosense.co.uk/.../catalog/category/view/manufacturer/22/id/82/.

Their stock on Nikons is very low at the moment but their price on Olympus is very similar to the figures you give..

The D40 is an excellent camera and a slam dunk at the price you mention. Here is a very thorough review from a well respected Nikon guru which may help you:.

Http://www.bythom.com/d40review.htm.

My advice:1. Spend as little as you need on a body2. Spend as much as you can afford on lenses.

3. Remember you are buying into a system. So try to take a look at a likely upgrade path such as a macro lens. There are some decent 3rd party lenses but do they have lenses to fit your chosen brand in the shops (Ignore vague future promises)..

Given that you have a deadline I will give you a suggestion with the warning that, inevitably, there is bias in my recommendation because I can only be based upon personal knoweledge and experience..

Look for a D40 or D40x (discontinued and replaced by the D60 but near identical) and an 18-135mm kit lens to go with it. That is the kit lens launched with the D80. It will give you a 7.5x zoom at an affordable price and an excellent single lens affordable solution as a travel lens. You can get them new on Ebay for about 160. That is the package I recommended to my son (D40x plus 18-135) and he is delighted..

The D40 seems only to be sold as a kit with the 18-55 Mk II lens. The D40x and D60 are sold body only so you should find a D40x/D60 plus 18-135 combo available at a few places..

There is nothing inherently wrong with the E510/520. It is generally a well sorted cam. The questions is whether you are comfortable with the limitations of the 4/3rds system both now and for the foreseeable future..

Hope that helps.

P.s. As Jim says ignore editing software for the moment. All cams come with some basic editing software allowing you to crop and brighten a photo. Where you go from there is a decision you can make much later..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #20

...an owner of an Olympus E510. Check out her photos...http://www.pbase.com/pipkin/padshinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #21

Shinndigg wrote:.

Actually, I have found Chris to be very biased, and his opinionsunfair. Olympus in particular seems to be his primary target..

I respectfully suggest that you are unduly sensative to criticism of the limitations inposed by physics (not me or biased reviewers) on the 4/3rds standard. In other words you do not like what you read. That is not the same as bias..

Olympus (& Panasonic) has a markedly different size sensor from other DSLRs. It uses the 4/3rds standard. All other DSLRs have broadly the same size sensor. For that reason alone there are noteable differences in performance. My comments have nothing to do with bias against Olympus. The differences are determined by physics.



" Just one example, regarding his statement that the E510 has a small viewfinder. The same can be said about the 1000D.".

1. Your words from an earlier post in this thread:.

Small viewfinder.

A little smaller.

2. All reviews comment on the 510 small VF. I always urge newbies to try all cameras out at the store. They can decide for themselves. again it is a matter of physics..

"Subjest isolation??? Come on! Depends on the lens being used.".

You are either being disingenuous or you do not understand these things. Yours is a totally meaningless statement. At given distance you will need a lens focal length 2/3rds that of a Nikon/Pentax/Sony to fill you frame with the same subject. Hence my example of 75mm/50mm at 10ft. You will then need to stop down about 1 stop or more on a 4/3rds cam than on a Nikon/Pentax/Sony to get the same subject isolation. Again that is a matter of physics and has nothing to do with bias.



Let us deal with the practicalities. Using the bog standard kit lenses from both Olympus (14-42) and Nikon (18-55) at 10 ft taking a portrait shot using the long end of the telephoto (as you would to avoid your subject having distorted facial features)..

Olympus at f/5.6 - DOF at 10ft - 2.95ftNikon at f/5.6 - DOF at 10ft - 2.27ft.

That is a difference of 8 inches. Since both lenses are wide open you cannot bridge that gap unless you buy a more expensive lens for the Olympus..

"Another example is high ISO noise. NOT an issue. Period. Sooooo, why sayanything about it.".

I will have to answer that in a separate post. I seem to have exceeded the character limit in my attempt to reply comprehensively.Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #22

"Another example is high ISO noise. NOT an issue. Period. Sooooo, why sayanything about it.".

You express opinions. I try to deal with facts. Again it is a matter of physics that at any given state of development of technology pixel pitch has a dramatic effect on high ISO image IQ. There is a clearly correlation which is why all P & S cams are /..

Comment #23

I will only respond in this manner: I have both an Oly E300 and a Nikon D50. In PRACTICAL terms, not in pixel-peeping-at-100%-crop, there is no difference. You can quote whatever numbers you come up with, it is still the same. I have been shooting with both for over 2 years, and the differences are NEGLIGIBLE, at most..

You see, I enjoy both cameras and see benefits to both, drawbacks to both. I am not biased, like you are Mr. Elliot.shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #24

Shinndigg wrote:.

I will only respond in this manner: I have both an Oly E300 and aNikon D50. In PRACTICAL terms, not in pixel-peeping-at-100%-crop,there is no difference. You can quote whatever numbers you come upwith, it is still the same. I have been shooting with both for over 2years, and the differences are NEGLIGIBLE, at most..

David,.

Neither the E300 or D50 are exactly cutting edge technology. Both are now 3 years old. They are hardly a good basis upon which to judge the output of the current crop of cameras. Neither are current models..

To quote from my last post:.

"The Oly E510 is a well engineered cam that works well within the constraints of the physical limitation of 4/3rds.... However for those wanting excellence at the margins (low light, sports, subject isolation) there are other, in my view, better choices that they should consider... For most people 95% of the time it will make no difference (and for some people 100% of the time)..

I rarely pixel peep. (Most of the time I do my PP at 30% crop with an occasional check at 50%.) I aim to produce decent output to A4 and no more. So my comments are practical. Depth of field has nothing to do with pixel peeping. Reduced dynamic range has nothing to do with pixel peeping. Small VF has nothing to do with pixel peeping..

I have looked at your on line photos (and can often tell which are D50 and which are E300 by the way). You are part of the 95%. You rarely shoot above ISO 200 (I found one ISO 800 shot). You take few portraits and zero sports photos. Most of your output is landscapes. You appear never to have pushed your D50 to it's limits.

I am pleased for you that you like them and they work for you..

You see, I enjoy both cameras and see benefits to both, drawbacks to both..

I have a D50 and D80. I see benefits to both and drawbacks to both. I push mine a lot harder than you do. I enjoyed my Olympus E20 before that and Olympus 2500L before that and my Olympus 1400XL before that (DSLRS all of them but 2/3rds sensor) but I have moved on..

I am not biased, like you are Mr. Elliot..

It is so very, very easy to make the accusation against anybody who posts things you do not like to read. I have absolutely no desire to belittle you. I am quite content to leave others to judge..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #25

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Shinndigg wrote:.

I will only respond in this manner: I have both an Oly E300 and aNikon D50. In PRACTICAL terms, not in pixel-peeping-at-100%-crop,there is no difference. You can quote whatever numbers you come upwith, it is still the same. I have been shooting with both for over 2years, and the differences are NEGLIGIBLE, at most..

David,.

Neither the E300 or D50 are exactly cutting edge technology. Both arenow 3 years old. They are hardly a good basis upon which to judge theoutput of the current crop of cameras. Neither are current models..

Point taken. However, see below regarding 'system'..

To quote from my last post:"The Oly E510 is a well engineered cam that works well within theconstraints of the physical limitation of 4/3rds.....

However for.

Those wanting excellence at the margins (low light, sports, subjectisolation) there are other, in my view, better choices that theyshould consider... For most people 95% of the time it will make nodifference (and for some people 100% of the time)..

At least I'll give you this. You did, in a previous post, state that you opinion is biased.Another quote from one of your previous posts:.

"All the downsides of the Oly 510/520 are inherent to the 4/3rds standard which has a sensor 29% smaller than Nikon and most others:.

Small viewfinderLack of subject isolationHigh ISO noisePoorish dynamic range. ".

Thus, the implication is, the 4/3rds SYSTEM is, has Small Viewfinders compared to the aforementioned systems (Canon, Nikon and Pentax), is incapable of subject isolation, has high ISO noise, has poorish DR, i.e, lacks sufficient Dynamic Range..

As such, the implication is, that the 4/3rds system is substandard, compared to other systems. Nothing is further from the truth..

As I stated, the numbers show that the E510 viewfinder is actually on par with the 1000D, though the best of the bunch is the Pentax. The same differences where atated regarding the E300 in comparision to other cameras of it's time, including the D50. Again, in PRACTICAL usage, the difference is negligible..

Regarding 'subject isolation', or depth of field, this is more dependent on lenses, that is to say, aperature and how wide open the aperature is. It has been proven with the like of the Zuiko 50mm f2 and the Sigma 30mm f1.4 that this is not an issue either. Not he same as, say, an 85mm f1.4/1.8 lens, but still capable of separating the subject from the background. If you looked at any of the Elizabethan Garden flower photos in my galleries, you would see this is true..

Regarding high ISO noise, at pixel-peeping levels, one can see a difference, though this is negligible. The implication on your part is that it is inherently problematic, whereas as many have shown in the Olympus DSLR forums, it simpliy isn't..

Regarding DR, as has been proven in said forums, though having slightly less DR than other cams, it has sufficient DR for the majority of applications. The 'problem' has more to do with the steepper tone curve and by reducing contrast, one can minimize the 'problem'. Thankfully, Olympus seems to have addressed the issue with the E420/520..

I rarely pixel peep. (Most of the time I do my PP at 30% crop with anoccasional check at 50%.) I aim to produce decent output to A4 and nomore. So my comments are practical. Depth of field has nothing to dowith pixel peeping. Reduced dynamic range has nothing to do withpixel peeping. Small VF has nothing to do with pixel peeping..

I have looked at your on line photos (and can often tell which areD50 and which are E300 by the way). You are part of the 95%. Yourarely shoot above ISO 200 (I found one ISO 800 shot). You take fewportraits and zero sports photos. Most of your output is landscapes.You appear never to have pushed your D50 to it's limits. So bothcameras suit you.



You see, I enjoy both cameras and see benefits to both, drawbacks to both..

I have a D50 and D80. I see benefits to both and drawbacks to both. Ipush mine a lot harder than you do. I enjoyed my Olympus E20 beforethat and Olympus 2500L before that and my Olympus 1400XL before that(DSLRS all of them but 2/3rds sensor) but I have moved on..

I am not biased, like you are Mr. Elliot..

It is so very, very easy to make the accusation against anybody whoposts things you do not like to read. I have absolutely no desire tobelittle you. I am quite content to leave others to judge..

Not an accusation, an observance, based on your posts here and previous posts..

This isn't a personal attack. I simply don't agree with your exagerated statements, and as such, want to set the record straight, thus providing newbies an unbiased opinion to provide aid in making an INFORMED decision..

To reiterate my point, in practical terms, the difference between APS and 4/3rds systems is negligible, at most..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/.

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #26

I'm not too keen on the Pentax, it would depend how it felt in the shop but it looks like it's heavier and I don't really want an AA battery camera - too much bulk for travelling. And I've done OK so far not soaking my P&S..

Haven't had time to look at Canon yet!.

So do I understand that (depending on physics, bias and/or camera ownership) the smaller sensor in the Olympus camera means (in relation to similar cameras) poorer performance at higher ISO and more difficulties with subject isolation, but nothing on a level which will really bother a novice such as myself?.

I've noticed that Nikon have a 'cashback' deal going. I've never heard of this in the UK before, just the US - isn't the idea that people will forget to claim their money back, or they mess around so much you don't get your money back? I don't understand why they don't just sell it at that price in the first place. It makes me wary, and it does come into things. Amazon sell the Oly E510 with two lenses (14-42 & 40-150) for 420. Currys have a deal going for a Nikon D60 with two lenses (18-55 & 55-200) with a case and 2GB card for 510, which is exactly the same price as the Oly if you factor in a 90 cashback deal. Or I can stop aiming beyond my needs  and get a 250 D40 with 18-55..

Thankyou for the help so far - I am no more decided than I was at the beginning, which is what research is all about, right?! As I've looked at the Oly's cons, I feel I should look at the D60's, too, but I'm venturing into more territory I don't understand - I don't know what white balance bracketing is, for example, and I'm not sure that I need to worry about only shooting basic JPEGs in RAW+JPEG (the two cameras come out with almost exactly the same final scores on this site, anyway). I doubt I'll be buying non-kit lenses for a while (and doubt I could tell the difference between an Oly and a Nikon right now) and don't have time to learn about in-depth image editing immediately (final year of uni coming up), so in the end it's going to be which feels right in the shop, I think...

Comment #27

Zipporah wrote:which will really bother a novice such as myself?.

I've noticed that Nikon have a 'cashback' deal going. I've neverheard of this in the UK before, just the US - isn't the idea thatpeople will forget to claim their money back, or they mess around somuch you don't get your money back? I don't understand why they don'tjust sell it at that price in the first place. It makes me wary, andit does come into things..

It is common in UK. I think it is a way to move stock that the shop already has particularly when a new model is on the way. If the manufacturer reduced the price then shops who had stock would be hit.Richard..

Comment #28

Zipporah wrote:.

.....So do I understand that (depending on physics, bias and/or cameraownership) the smaller sensor in the Olympus camera means (inrelation to similar cameras) poorer performance at higher ISO andmore difficulties with subject isolation, but nothing on a levelwhich will really bother a novice such as myself?.

Yes. That sums it up. How much that matters to you is entirely for you and none of my business!.

I've noticed that Nikon have a 'cashback' deal going. I've neverheard of this in the UK before, just the US - isn't the idea thatpeople will forget to claim their money back, or they mess around somuch you don't get your money back? I don't understand why they don'tjust sell it at that price in the first place. It makes me wary, andit does come into things. Amazon sell the Oly E510 with two lenses(14-42 & 40-150) for 420. Currys have a deal going for a Nikon D60with two lenses (18-55 & 55-200) with a case and 2GB card for 510,which is exactly the same price as the Oly if you factor in a 90cashback deal. Or I can stop aiming beyond my needs  and get a250 D40 with 18-55..

There have been several cashbacks for Nikon in the UK over the years. I think you are right. They are less expensive than an outright price reduction because some people do not claim. It is also better cash flow management. The schemes are genuine and I have never heard of problems (though I expect they will be slow to pay out!)..

There is a lot to be said for a D40. Unlike computers cams do not need software and thus do not become redundant quite so quickly. Planned shutter life expectancy for the consumer DSLRs is circa 50,000. However most people tend to upgrade every four years or so because of the advance of technology. So just factor that in when spending!.

Thankyou for the help so far - I am no more decided than I was at thebeginning, which is what research is all about, right?! As I'velooked at the Oly's cons, I feel I should look at the D60's, too, butI'm venturing into more territory I don't understand - I don't knowwhat white balance bracketing is, for example,.

The colour of light varies according to light source. Our eyes adjust automatically. A camera cannot do that very well though they do have Auto WB but it does not work very well with most electric lighting (You probably knew that already). Just as you might want to bracket the exposure of a shot to get it right you can bracket WB to make sure you get the right balance between daylight and tungsten light on an interior shot with, say,houselights on and sunlight through the window..

Not a very valuable feature in my view (exposure or WB bracketing) for two reasons:.

1. You have to click the shutter three times to take three separate shots. If you forget to turn it off and go back to single shots you will end up with serialy under and overexposed shots..

2. Three shots to get each one one means that you will wear your shutter out faster.

It is easy enough to change and take a 2nd/3rd shot changing the settings manually..

And I'm not sure that I need to worry about only shooting basic JPEGs in RAW+JPEG (the two cameras come out with almost exactly the same final scores on this site, anyway). I doubt I'll be buying non-kit lenses for a while (anddoubt I could tell the difference between an Oly and a Nikon rightnow) and don't have time to learn about in-depth image editingimmediately (final year of uni coming up), so in the end it's goingto be which feels right in the shop, I think..

That is your best guide. It is nice to take decent photos but it is even nicer to ENJOY taking them..

P.S. I mentioned Sally Gohl earlier (Perhaps not by name). She has a D40x which is virtually the same as a D60. Her online photos are here:.

Http://flickr.com/photos/sallyghl/.

(Photos of Whitby etc. They are in many ways similar in style to David Shinn's photos).

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #29

Shinndigg wrote:.

At least I'll give you this. You did, in a previous post, state thatyou opinion is biased..

You are misquoting me:.

"Given that you have a deadline I will give you a suggestion with the warning that, inevitably, there is bias in my recommendation because I can only be based upon personal knowledge and experience..".

There I am making specific recommendations because time is short recommending a lens/body combination I know to work well together. There will be other combinations that work well together that I will have no experience of. That has nothing to do with bias AGAINST Olympus. I am giving a specific recommedation with a health warning that it involves a bias FOR Nikon. - Rather different!.

Another quote from one of your previous posts:"All the downsides of the Oly 510/520 are inherent to the 4/3rdsstandard which has a sensor 29% smaller than Nikon and most others:.

Small viewfinderLack of subject isolationHigh ISO noisePoorish dynamic range. "Thus, the implication is, the 4/3rds SYSTEM is, has Small Viewfinderscompared to the aforementioned systems (Canon, Nikon and Pentax), isincapable of subject isolation, has high ISO noise, has poorish DR,i.e, lacks sufficient Dynamic Range.As such, the implication is, that the 4/3rds system is substandard,compared to other systems. Nothing is further from the truth..

Now there we differ. Oly has RELATIVELY poor DR, subject isolation etc etc when compared to other DSLRs with larger sensors. It much better than all P & S cams ,not quite as good as APS-C and miles behind full frame..

As I stated, the numbers show that the E510 viewfinder is actually onpar with the 1000D, though the best of the bunch is the Pentax..

What numbers? Where?.

The same differences where atated regarding the E300 in comparision toother cameras of it's time, including the D50. Again, in PRACTICALusage, the difference is negligible..

It depends upon what practical things you want to do. If you want to use ISO 1600 for most of your photos it does make a tremendous difference. If you want subject isolation etc, etc.

Regarding 'subject isolation', or depth of field, this is moredependent on lenses, that is to say, aperature and how wide open theaperature is. It has been proven with the like of the Zuiko 50mm f2and the Sigma 30mm f1.4 that this is not an issue either. Not he sameas, say, an 85mm f1.4/1.8 lens, but still capable of separating thesubject from the background..

But look at the cost of such lenses if you buy Nikon (or Canon) compared with Oly. Now it is true to say that the cost of such lenses has more to do with economies of scale and is not the fault of the system but it is a fact that an f/2 Oly lens will cost you a fortune but a 50mm f/1.8 Nikon cost buttons..

If you looked at any of the ElizabethanGarden flower photos in my galleries, you would see this is true..

You have some very nice shots in your galleries. You have a good eye for composition.

Regarding high ISO noise, at pixel-peeping levels, one can see adifference, though this is negligible. The implication on your partis that it is inherently problematic, whereas as many have shown inthe Olympus DSLR forums, it simpliy isn't..

We are not in the hermetically sealed bubble of the Olympus Forum. We all work with what we have got but I would not recommend an Olympus DSLR to anybody that regularly has to shoot at ISO 1600. I am sure you can coax a decent A4 shot out with care but I regularly push shots to ISO 3200 with my Nikons just as with care and attention to detail you can do so at 1600 with an Oly. A recent example. This was shot in Manual and I spun the shutter speed the wrong way (Oops!) Then corrected it next shot but then someone had their eyes closed or whatever so I then had to process it. So this was shot at ISO 1600 but underexposed by well over one stop.



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D50 f/4 1/500th 50mm.

With all respect to Jim that looks a lot less plastic than his Serena Williams shot and it is at over double the ISO..

Regarding DR, as has been proven in said forums, though havingslightly less DR than other cams, it has sufficient DR for themajority of applications. The 'problem' has more to do with thesteepper tone curve and by reducing contrast, one can minimize the'problem'. Thankfully, Olympus seems to have addressed the issue withthe E420/520..

I like to maximise contrast and normally have wide DR scenes to shoot. An Oly would not cut the mustard for me..

To reiterate my point, in practical terms, the difference between APSand 4/3rds systems is negligible, at most..

Again we differ. There is a noticeable difference between APS and 4/3rds. You will not see it at ISO 100, 200, taking landscapes and other "easy" shots but when working in low light, with a need for subject isolation or with wide DR shots you will. How much that matters to the purchaser is a matter for them..

P.S. If these things don't matter how come the D3 and D700 are selling like hot cakes at very fancy prices when both are only 12 Mpixel? No don't bother answering! It is because pixel pitch and thus sensor size does matter..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #30

The Nikon takes SD cards - does that mean I couldn't use an Olympus XD card? (I will want to keep that card in my Olympus P&S shoot for videos, anyway, so it doesn't really matter, now I think about it) Also, are specific brands of cards recommended? There are lots of cheap XD cards on Amazon but there don't seem to be as many SD ones..

Also ... do I need a filter? Of any kind? Extra batteries? For close-ups, should I be budgeting for a macro (or any other) lens sooner rather than later, or not really be thinking about extra equipment yet? A quick search brings up only the Nikkor 50mm as within my budget for add-ons to a Nikon - what is that lens used for? Also re Nikons - does it matter that lots of their lenses seem to be without autofocus motors? Or should I stop talking to friends who've been taking pictures way longer than I have? ;-P..

Comment #31

Zipporah wrote:.

The Nikon takes SD cards - does that mean I couldn't use an OlympusXD card?.

Correct. But they are very slow anyway. SD cards are much faster..

(I will want to keep that card in my Olympus P&S shoot for.

Videos, anyway, so it doesn't really matter, now I think about it)Also, are specific brands of cards recommended? There are lots ofcheap XD cards on Amazon but there don't seem to be as many SD ones..

Stick with major brands like Sandisk. I would expect their are many more types of SD card ten XD. Try another supplier. (Try a Google search on SD). I would go for 2 x 2GB SD's. They should work with any card reader.



Also ... do I need a filter?.

No. Some people use them for protection but 50% or more of us so not. no point in putting cheap galss in front of expensive glass. you will get internal reflections that will degrade your image. JUst get (or make) a lens cap keeper. (ring of elastic and a sticky bit for the lens cap.

That is the best protection.Extra batteries?.

If buying any Nikon you will not need a spare battery. Worst senario - you can charge up over night..

Close-ups, should I be budgeting for a macro (or any other) lenssooner rather than later, or not really be thinking about extraequipment yet?.

I would spend the minimum. You can get so-so macros with most kit lenses. Try that first. You will know your true needs better when and if you come to buy..

A quick search brings up only the Nikkor 50mm as within my budget for add-ons to a Nikon - what is that lens used for?.

Also re Nikons - does it matter that lots of their lenses seem to bewithout autofocus motors? Or should I stop talking to friends who'vebeen taking pictures way longer than I have? ;-P.

None of the smaller Nikon prime lenses will AF with a D40 or D60 (They will with a D80). These are fairly specialist lenses. You can manual focus them. You are much better off sticking with standard kit fare for the moment. - ideally as I said earlier an 18-135mm. That will be all you need for many months (maybe ever.

Must go out to do some singing! No time to answer more fully.Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #32

I went with the D60, good deal and I could get my hands on it now, I've been growing impatient . My bruiser bunny came and inspected:.

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Thanks for all the advice!..

Comment #33

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Take a look at Jim's high ISO shot of Serena Williams here:.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

There is so much pp noise reduction that she is half way to beingturned into an avatar. Her skin looks plastic because of the blurringof detail. (Sorry Jim!).

Chris Elliott.

Chris,.

Since you used one of my shots as an example, I could not help but note that is was not one of the ones that I posted in this thread at least I could not find it if I did. I agree that there is a good deal of PP loss of detail which is more a testament to my lack of PP skill then the Oly. For that reason it is not necessarily a fair example, although I have used it as one in other threads so I can't necessarily complain. Below is the original image uncropped and untouched, except for some WB and saved in RAW and converted to JPG. Just as it came out of the camera with a kit lens..

Is there some noise at 1600 sure, it is just a fact. I imagine that a Nikon or Canon would have less but how much I can't say because I didn't have one to compare side by side. However in an 8x10 print it is not noticeable and since it is my shot and I have printed it from the original I should know. I do not dispute that Nikon and Canon have less noise at high ISO that is simply a fact also..

However one of the things that I have noticed in your posts is that you freely discuss the negative physics of the Oly, but conveniently leave out the positive physics, significantly smaller size and weight of both the camera and in particular the lens, better CA, decreased vignetting, the crop magnification benefit for long shots, crop and print advantages of the 4/3 format in retaining resolution. Neither do you point out other features such as in-camera image stabilization, and Live View, not to mention lower cost then almost all the competition..

Please note that I have not stated that anything you said was incorrect. Simply incomplete. So to paraphrase a line from an old movie, what you have stated is accurate but it is not exactly true..

Jim.

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Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #34

Enjoy the Nikon. The Nikon, Oly, or even others will be fine for your needs..

As you're going on a trip soon your time is best spent reading the manual and practicing with your new camera..

The one think I disagree with Chris about in this thread is the lack of need for a second battery. I do hope you bought two memory cards (such as the Sandisk Ultra II's should be fine for you). The rest of my disagreements with Chris are minor for your needs...

Comment #35

Maddogmd11 wrote:.

Chris,.

Please note that I have not stated that anything you said wasincorrect. Simply incomplete. So to paraphrase a line from an oldmovie, what you have stated is accurate but it is not exactly true..

Jim.

That is pretty much my point in showing Chris' bias against Olympus. There are MANY positives. I many other threads where ones ask for recommendations, I will point out plusses and negatives of various systems. I usaually add that ALL of the current crop are very capable..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it..

Shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #36

Enjoy your Nikon! And practice, practice, practice before you go on your trip. Also, you must realize there is a learning curve to DSLRs. So, be patient with your camera and yourself. And ASK questions. Since you bought Nikon, the Nikon forums will be very useful. Morris in particular is very helpful. Have fun!shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #37

Zipporah wrote:.

I went with the D60, good deal and I could get my hands on it now,I've been growing impatient . My bruiser bunny came and inspected:Thanks for all the advice!.

You are very welcome. Enjoy your cam..

Did you buy the two lens kit or just the 18-55 VR?.

A couple more bits of advice:.

1. Download Opanda (free download). You can then right click on many online photos and read the exif details. That will tell you shutter speed aperture etc etc. That way you can learn from others..

2. Resist strongly any temptation to spend more until you are absolutely sure you need something. All you need for now is:Lens pen/cleaning clothRocket BlowerSpare SD cardLens cap keep (normally sold in blister packs of two).

I would not even trouble with a camera bag until you know your likely future needs (i.e how much space to allow for expansion). A small cool bag/lunch bag will give you all the protection you need. Or buy something used on Ebay to be going on with. (I bought my last bag off a pro on Ebay. It holds two bodies, four bog lenses, flash etc and cost me 27 - a lovely Gladstone type back of black canvas and leather!)..

Do come back for more advice on the Nikon D40-80 Forum..

P.s. You photo shows exactly what can be done with depth of field on a kit lens!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #38

Maddogmd11 wrote:.

Chris,.

Since you used one of my shots as an example, I could not help butnote that is was not one of the ones that I posted in this thread atleast I could not find it if I did. I agree that there is a gooddeal of PP loss of detail which is more a testament to my lack of PPskill then the Oly. For that reason it is not necessarily a fairexample, although I have used it as one in other threads so I can'tnecessarily complain. Below is the original image uncropped anduntouched, except for some WB and saved in RAW and converted to JPG.Just as it came out of the camera with a kit lens..

Jim,.

Your earlier post in this thread lead me straight to it..

Is there some noise at 1600 sure, it is just a fact. I imagine thata Nikon or Canon would have less but how much I can't say because Ididn't have one to compare side by side. However in an 8x10 print itis not noticeable and since it is my shot and I have printed it fromthe original I should know. I do not dispute that Nikon and Canonhave less noise at high ISO that is simply a fact also..

Unfortunately David does not agree. Hence I got drawn into an argument on that subject rather than that which I would prefer, a objective debate on the RELATIVE merits..

However one of the things that I have noticed in your posts is thatyou freely discuss the negative physics of the Oly, but convenientlyleave out the positive physics, significantly smaller size and weightof both the camera and in particular the lens, better CA, decreasedvignetting, the crop magnification benefit for long shots, crop andprint advantages of the 4/3 format in retaining resolution. Neitherdo you point out other features such as in-camera imagestabilization, and Live View, not to mention lower cost then almostall the competition..

1. Over the past month and more you have regularly answered many "Which DSLR should I buy" questions posed in this Beginners Forum. I have not contributed though I have usually read those threads (I visit most days). If I have something to add to a thread I do so. I don't post simply to benefit my ego.

2. The OP began by asking for DSLRs to consider alongside the E510. He also said high ISO and good depth of field control, were important to him. Hence my contributions in this thread..

3. I ALWAYS advise OPs to visit a store and try out cams. That is most important. Much of your "criticism" is covered by that. Size and weight of cam and lenses will be obvious..

4. I don't accept that vignetting and CAs are a problem for APSC DSLRs. Canon's old kit lens had big problems with CA and the new one has some but Nikon has no more nor less than Olympus on the kit 18-55. Similarly with vignetting there are only very slight differences on the kit lenses..

5. Cost I can leave to the OP to determine. We are often advising people in other countries where the relative pricing of different brands may vary..

6. Crop magnification benefit for long shots - No contest. If I was climbing Everest or the like I might prefer an Olympus kit for the long lens (but see below).

7. This has nothing to do with physics. I do not use IS/VR. I think it is overrated in marketing. Most situations you can work around it by upping shutter speed via ISO or using flash (and of course it is useless for moving subjects). It is useful in museum art galleries etc where flash and tripods are banned (I seem to manage with a monopod) but it is definitely something on the features list that may be worth factoring in.

When using say a 200mm lens you really need the image to be stabilised as well as the shot. In body only stabilises the shot. True you can maybe use LiveView but most such systems are still very cluncky. So it is really a neutral feature. You have only to use a Nikon 55-200 VR with VR switch on then off to appreciate the relevance of my comment..

8. Both formats have LiveView. It s not unique to Olympus. Most systems are still crude in their implementation in my view..

9. I am not sure what you mean by crop and print advantages. I don't consider there are any..

But to take an overview this OP was knowledgeable. He did not require spoon feeding. He needed his mind focusing on what is important to him..

More generally there is no system of stickies on this site. It is unrealsitic to expect a litany to be posted in every thread and to spoon feed every OP. They must do their own reading of reviews etc..

I have said in this thread that for most people 95% of the time (and some people 100% of the time) the system difference will be irrelevant. David Shinn's style of photograph is a perfect example. But there are differences (which David insists on denying which rather sidetracked this thread)..

In my view many hobby photographers overbuy. For the casual hobby photographer there is zero reason for not including Olympus on their short list. After that it become price versus feel in your hand versus features..

But we are in something of a goldfish bowl on this site. Most posting here are not typical photographers. We are keen/avid photographers and it is impossible to tell who among newbies will fall into the same category and who will fall into what very unfairly is described as the "soccer mom" category - want to take nice photos occasionally..

I try to lay out some of the facts dispassionately. I just do not have the time to lay out a treaties on the merits of systems and models in every thread. Newbies need help with the importance of technichal differences. I leave differences of size and price and the features list to them..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #39

It was a bundle deal for body, two lenses, bag and card (SanDisk 2GB) - easier and worked out cheaper, and I decided asking more questions would get even more confusing and I should just buy and stop second guessing mself. So I went to Currys (for Brits), which guaranteed I couldn't get sidetracked by anyone who knew anything about cameras!  In the end I preferred the feel of the Nikon, although the right hand grip on the Oly is more natural. I would have been happy with either, I'm sure, it's just lovely to hold a proper camera again..

Look, a ginger bunny:.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

(No, I haven't read the manual, I was just messing around with the filter buttons )...

Comment #40

As you can see here, people are fiercely loyal to whatever particular brand they use. I am somewhat of a beginner myself. I started with the E-500 kit and now have the E-510, looking to upgrade to the E-3. All the 4/3 blasting is jealousy, Olympus has the only built from the ground up to be digital and that is one of the reasons you get what is known as Olympus color. I guess it's true in very high ISO's Olympus has more noise, 99.9% of the time that doesn't make any difference to common folks like us. I have read and digested every pro and con to every brand out there and Olympus is at least at good if not better then other small sensor DSLR's.

You can buy the Oly 2 lens kit with one of the highest rated kit lenses right now in the US for about $599 USD. Yes there are differences in brands but it sounds like any will do what you want and Olympus offers the Best Value by far. One more thing I like about Olympus is they are always innovating, bringing new features like dust reduction, liveview etc to market, yes they were first. One more thing you might consider is the new cameras coming out from Olympus this fall, they will have interchangeable lenses just like SLR's and they will have the same size sensor but will only have an electronic viewfinder or LCD. These new cameras will be smaller to carry, take the same quality photos with interchangeable lenses and should fit your needs perfectly.

Darrell..

Comment #41

Zipporah wrote:.

It was a bundle deal for body, two lenses, bag and card (SanDisk 2GB)- easier and worked out cheaper, and I decided asking more questionswould get even more confusing and I should just buy and stop secondguessing mself. So I went to Currys (for Brits), which guaranteed Icouldn't get sidetracked by anyone who knew anything about cameras! In the end I preferred the feel of the Nikon,filter buttons )..

Sorry wished I had read this post first, enjoy you new camera they are a lot of fun...

Comment #42

And forth but I will give you 1 example of what I meant about being accurate but... from you post above..

You said.

8. Both formats have LiveView. It s not unique to Olympus. Most systems are still crude in their implementation in my view..

That is accurate. And I will not even argue with the last sentence. However NONE of the Nikon entry level cameras has live view. None, Nada. Zip. Zero.



I have no problem with most of your comments about the 4/3rds issues. There are some and any reasonable user of the 4/3 standard knows them and most of us learn how to deal with them. However there are some VERY positive aspects of the OLY 4/3rds implementation both from the physics and feature standpoint that you seldom mention or mention only in passing..

For example, I have no problem saying that the Oly has noise at high ISO it does. I also have no problem saying that dust is often mentioned as a problem on the Nikons and almost never mentioned on Olys because of the built in dust system. There are positive for almost any body out there as well as negatives. Lets try to make sure we mention both..

I seldom bash Nikon cameras because they make a very good product (I sometimes bash their owners  ). However at the low end of the market, other than, operation in low light and the difference in FOV (which could be both positive and negative to either system) Nikon has nothing exceptional. The D40 and D40x can't even use all the Nikon lenses. The Oly, IMO, provides a better value with equivalent and in some aspects superior capabilities..

Jim.

Olympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #43

Excellent points, Jim. Though, don't you just love those useless diatribes?shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #44

Maddogmd11 wrote:.

You said.

8. Both formats have LiveView. It s not unique to Olympus. Mostsystems are still crude in their implementation in my view..

That is accurate. And I will not even argue with the last sentence.However NONE of the Nikon entry level cameras has live view. None,Nada. Zip. Zero. So while your statement is totally accurate....

I am nobody's lap dog.The OP began by asking for alternatives to consider to the Oly E510. I listed some. Among them were cams with live view..

The OP is a university student. She can read a features list as well as you or I. It is an insult to her intelligence to descend to the minutae. She was plainly well read on the subject..

I concentrated on the difference of physics between Oly and other brands. The precise features change almost by the week (D90 is likely to be announced on 27th August and has not only Liveview but high definition video). They are not obvious from reading the specs..

I have no problem with most of your comments about the 4/3rds issues.There are some and any reasonable user of the 4/3 standard knows themand most of us learn how to deal with them. However there are someVERY positive aspects of the OLY 4/3rds implementation both from thephysics and feature standpoint that you seldom mention or mentiononly in passing..

I am not a marketing employee of Olympus. Size differences are obvious. Price differences are obvious. Features lists are easy to read. What more do you want? I have already said that many people overbuy and that for many people the differences are irrelevant. I told the OP what the differences were and quite specifically said that whether those differences mattered was a matter for her.

With the specific warning that I was descending from impartial observation (knowing that the OP had a holiday coming up) I suggested the D40x/D60 plus 18-135mm. The OP had, after all, asked for alternatives to consider..

For example, I have no problem saying that the Oly has noise at highISO it does. I also have no problem saying that dust is oftenmentioned as a problem on the Nikons and almost never mentioned onOlys because of the built in dust system..

For your information with the arrival of the D90 all Nikon models save for the D40 and D3 have dust reduction. (In any case. It is a non issue. I have two cams and have never needed to do more than use a rocket blower on either in a combined life of 36 months.).

There are positive for almost any body out there as well as negatives. Lets try to make sure we mention both..

I seldom bash Nikon cameras because they make a very good product (Isometimes bash their owners  ). However at the low end of themarket, other than, operation in low light and the difference in FOV(which could be both positive and negative to either system) Nikonhas nothing exceptional. The D40 and D40x can't even use all theNikon lenses..

The same AF restriction applies also to the D60. But the limitation becomes less of a restriction by the day as Tamron and Sigma bring out AF-S lenses and a couple of Nikon low number primes are rumoured for Photokina. The reality is that the list of lenses that DO work (Nikon/3rd party) is longer than for Oly. The number of sub 100mm primes currently useable by either slightly favours Nikon. It has become a non- issue..

The Oly, IMO, provides a better value with equivalent.

And in some aspects superior capabilities..

Fine. And I have said many people buy over the specification they need. What is often difficult to judge is what their needs are. Many don't even know themselves. I simply want people to make an informed choice. You know I do not favour the gang mentality that populates many of these threads..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #45

Shinndigg wrote:.

Excellent points, Jim. Though, don't you just love those uselessdiatribes?.

Yahboo cheering from the sidelines helps nobody. This is exactly the sort of "My gang is better than your gang" mentality that I detest..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #46

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Maddogmd11 wrote:.

You said.

8. Both formats have LiveView. It s not unique to Olympus. Mostsystems are still crude in their implementation in my view..

That is accurate. And I will not even argue with the last sentence.However NONE of the Nikon entry level cameras has live view. None,Nada. Zip. Zero. So while your statement is totally accurate....

I am nobody's lap dog.The OP began by asking for alternatives toconsider to the Oly E510. I listed some. Among them were cams withlive view..

The OP is a university student. She can read a features list as wellas you or I. It is an insult to her intelligence to descend to theminutae. She was plainly well read on the subject..

I concentrated on the difference of physics between Oly and otherbrands. The precise features change almost by the week (D90 is likelyto be announced on 27th August and has not only Liveview but highdefinition video). They are not obvious from reading the specs..

I have no problem with most of your comments about the 4/3rds issues.There are some and any reasonable user of the 4/3 standard knows themand most of us learn how to deal with them. However there are someVERY positive aspects of the OLY 4/3rds implementation both from thephysics and feature standpoint that you seldom mention or mentiononly in passing..

I am not a marketing employee of Olympus. Size differences areobvious. Price differences are obvious. Features lists are easy toread. What more do you want? I have already said that many peopleoverbuy and that for many people the differences are irrelevant. Itold the OP what the differences were and quite specifically saidthat whether those differences mattered was a matter for her.

With the specificwarning that I was descending from impartial observation (knowingthat the OP had a holiday coming up) I suggested the D40x/D60 plus18-135mm. The OP had, after all, asked for alternatives to consider..

For example, I have no problem saying that the Oly has noise at highISO it does. I also have no problem saying that dust is oftenmentioned as a problem on the Nikons and almost never mentioned onOlys because of the built in dust system..

For your information with the arrival of the D90 all Nikon modelssave for the D40 and D3 have dust reduction. (In any case. It is anon issue. I have two cams and have never needed to do more than usea rocket blower on either in a combined life of 36 months.).

There are positive for almost any body out there as well as negatives. Lets try to make sure we mention both..

I seldom bash Nikon cameras because they make a very good product (Isometimes bash their owners  ). However at the low end of themarket, other than, operation in low light and the difference in FOV(which could be both positive and negative to either system) Nikonhas nothing exceptional. The D40 and D40x can't even use all theNikon lenses..

The same AF restriction applies also to the D60. But the limitationbecomes less of a restriction by the day as Tamron and Sigma bringout AF-S lenses and a couple of Nikon low number primes are rumouredfor Photokina. The reality is that the list of lenses that DO work(Nikon/3rd party) is longer than for Oly. The number of sub 100mmprimes currently useable by either slightly favours Nikon. It hasbecome a non- issue..

The Oly, IMO, provides a better value with equivalent.

And in some aspects superior capabilities..

Fine. And I have said many people buy over the specification theyneed. What is often difficult to judge is what their needs are. Manydon't even know themselves. I simply want people to make an informedchoice. You know I do not favour the gang mentality that populatesmany of these threads..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/.

And you, once again, have proven my point about useless diatribe.shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #47

Shinndigg wrote:.

And you, once again, have proven my point about useless diatribe..

I think the timing of your post. (Circa 2.00 a.m you local time?) speaks volumes about how obsessed you are on this issue..

Bluntly you are trying to stir up trouble. I think it is time that you stopped..

P.S. Diatribe - "an angry speech or piece of writing which severely criticizes something or someone". My posts are neither angry nor do they *severely* criticise. They are a calm and dispassionate. Sadly much of their length is associated with rebutting your insistence that there are no differences in systems when Jim calmly accepts that there are..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Comment #48

Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the root words for diatribe. Then you will gain a full understanding of the meaning.shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #49

I bought a Nikon because the price was right and I preferred it in the shop. I know people get protective over their own cameras and choices and annoyed at false information, but I didn't pick the Nikon because I was put off the Oly by what I read here, or because I was persuaded that it was a bad camera or anything like that..

Remember I am a complete novice who won't need/can't afford additional lenses for another year or so. All that 4/3s means to me is that when I print pics off for my scrapbook, I need to trim borders off my photos. I shoot everything in auto. I have no idea if I'll use this camera till it dies, trade up for a better model or give it to my sister and buy an Olympus. I am overjoyed at photos like this:.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Which I shot on a tiny Oly P&S. This is the level I'm working at!..

Comment #50

I want to make it clear that Chris and my posts have very little to do with what you purchased. It's just 2 guys going back and forth a little. We were probably both lawyers in a past life. Actually I'm sure Chris was!!! LOL.

I hope you enjoy the D60. The fun is going out and using it and being able to go back and re-live the memories and seeing your abilities and knowledge grow. That fun is totally independent of who made the camera. None of the pictures have the camera models stamped on them, unless you look at the EXIF..

I will give you this little bit of advice that applies to any DSLR. It's fine to start using a DSLR in automode but don't be "afraid" of all the settings. Once you start playing with them you will find that they are not that hard to use or understand and it will make a huge difference on the quality of the images over time and the time you spend in post processing plus it's fun to go "Ohhh! so THAT's what that does!!. Believe me, we have all said that..

And learning how to do all the little camera gizmos means you get to join in the fun arguing on DPreview when you get old like me!! It'll give you something to look fwd to in 30-40 years..

Have a great time with the new camera!!!.

JimOlympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #51

True, true. I'm playing with shutter speed at the moment. I have a camera which can take 40 seconds to take a photograph, whee!..

Comment #52

Hope you have a tripod!!..

Have fun. Shoot often..

JimOlympus E-510 and a bunch of stuff to hang on it...

Comment #53

I agree wholeheartedly with Jim. You really couldn't make a poor choice, be it Olympus, Nikon, Pentax or Canon. Enjoy your new toy and take the time to learn. Be patient withyourself and your camera. For many, there is a learning curve involved.shinndigghttp://www.pbase.com/shinndigg..

Comment #54

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