I could care less what the average person "thinks"....it's the letter of the law that matters. Most people don't even know the name of our Vice President...
The tricky part is, labrocca, the letter of WHICH law - that's the problem. Before the United Nations which is a toothless tiger (on life support in an old age home) there was "The League of Nations". They too had no global enforcement, and vanished. In Europe well, Germany, a company (any type, domain investor included) has no right to a surname domain. A Person has the primary right. So, "Schultz.com" would win over the publisher of "Snoopy", even if he just leaves it as an error 404 page..
Thus, what we say DOES matter as it does set a precedent...
I live in USA..I go by my countries law. If you live in Germany...you would need to follow their laws. Seems simple enough to me...
Hey - trust me - I WISH it were so easy! Get this, the guy who owns ZERO.US (A U.S. domain) is in it deep with a covetous company. Of course, "Zero" means - well - "Zero!". That's it - it LITERALLY MEANS NOTHING!. It COULD be a MILLION Things: A player's number, Coke Zero, Zero Gravity Boots, anything. But apparrently Pirelli (in Italy) believes that Zero.US can ONLY refer to Italian "P-Zero" tires.
Its the world we live in. I wish we could say: "Hey Pirelli - I'm a good year guy. Aakron!" Bummer is we can't, and have to defend ourselves from every hemisphere. I'm doing what I can for our industry.
I am familiar with the zero.us UDRP. And if you want to do something for the industry...don't even joke about them being property. It will be the worst thing to happen to domainers since the dotcom bubble burst.
The zero.us situation has nothing to do with how domains are viewed btw. And your comment that zero.us is "in deep"..well that's a little off don't you think? Pirelli imho stands a zero chance of getting this domain if it's defended to any degree.
If you want to help domainers...help them to understand that domains are NOT property and why it's important they don't become so...
Jesse - it's an opinion, and one I do not even have. Its being voted on presently. The only "favor" I am doing domain owners is allowing them to vote their interest, which I cordially invite you to as well. The ICA's official opinion is in our Domain Owner's Bill of Rights on our site. We want domains to be treated the way the Owner treats them. Some people treat their PC as an asset and depreciate it.
Others trade them as inventories. They are the SAME PC's, but the INTENTS and USES are different. I am energized by your passion and adamancy. I wish others would share it..
Both camps have vices and virtues. If they are indeed "Property" and governmental fiat takes them away, then "Just Compensation" must be given (Fair Market Value). One might be able to value them in a traditional company's asset column for increased valuation as a rule, take loans against them as collateral, depreciate and "1031 Exchange" them, etc. They'd also likely get the lower "capital gains" rate of any imposed taxation..
However, they'd ALSO be ATTACHABLE in "in rem" legal actions. Inventory and expense status would be faster tax deductions, but no lending collateral or capital gains rate taxation..
Who is the ICA to tell domain owners what "domains are"? No one. That's why we're not "telling" them anything: THEY'RE TELLING US...
Understandable what you're doing, Jude. Perhaps a disclaimer on the poll can.
Seriously, how many people understand to begin with what relationships they.
Have towards domain names? Perhaps that's a starting point?.
The reality is domain names are currently not declared property outright. Even.
If they are, depending on the extension, it so happens there are more "valid".
Reasons why they shouldn't be when the risks far outweigh the gains.
Personally I voted they're a contractable right because that's what they are.
For now. Until the relevant authority says otherwise, that's what they'll be no.
Matter what other people want to believe.
Then again, how many people care about circumstances and want results?.
I certainly don't enjoy telling people why they aren't...yet. But sometimes we.
Need to get real, especially when different and possibly competing interests.
Rockn - we oughta get you on the legal blog..
Hmmm.. delete my post for the time being till I get more info.....
In my opinion, the question is so biased that the results are useless. It points out possible benefits of "property treatment" but doesn't point out any positives of the other choices. This makes anyone who hasn't researched the matter thoroughly make an easy pick- Property- duh, it's the only one with benefits and look I can depreciate my names and get capital gains treatments. What? That's possible also with the other options maybe too?..
As has been suggested the poll does seem biased by the fact you have only mentioned the benefits of 1 of the option which happens to be winning.
I personally voted for "Domains are a RENEWABLE CONTRACT RIGHT.". At the end of the day it makes no difference on how someone perceives their domain name, if the law perceives it another way then that's the way it goes.
Also as you are most likely aware when you pay for a domain name you are leasing that domain name from the registry, it can be taken at any time (although it only generally happens if you do something wrong).
For example the following is taken from nominet's terms:-..
I had several responses, but decided to tone it down a bit. As recently stated, all domains are leased regardless if people think they own the domain. But the heart of the matter, making domain "property". I see where they are going with it, but someone fails to realize that "real property" will have "real taxes". There are local, state and federal taxes.. I am sure each one will try to get a piece of the pie.
Income generated by the domain could then be taxed (remember, there is no tax of interstate sales, only intrastate). Also figure, you buy a premium domain at 100,000.00... how much of that will be taxed which you then hae to pay extra?.
Also, with outright ownership, I can see someone trying to change the way the internet works (laugh now, but think about it). This is my domain, this is how I want MY domain handled. But rest assured, someone will try to foul things up (look at what goes on around here now).
I think I understand where they are trying to go about this, but I have to admit, it seems to be a little too much narrow vision with the platform.
As far as TMs, big companies put $$$ into the process to protect them, on the flip side, domainers would need to do the same thing...
I posted earlier today on another thread with a similar message. Domains are NOT property (although many of us domainers may wish they were). Domains are essentially leaseholds, NOT freeholds...
Jude..I think your poll sucks. It's definitely slanted for that top choice of Property along with your words of benefits. BULL...
I don't give a rats ass about your opinion on the matter. What matters is the law and how it stands now. You seemingly aren't thinking out the problems fully if domains are declared property. If that happens then "renewals" will certainly disappear in place of "taxing". How can I own something as a property that I have to renew annually or I lose it?.
If it's property it has to be listed in a suit and someone could go after your domain as an asset. Imagine the frivalous suits created so unscrupulous people can get a domain. The UDRP already has this problem but by making domains property you will get the local legal systems involved. Currently no one can sue me for my domain.
Let's say you are gonna declare bankruptcy...they can take your domains! F-that and your idea and your poll..it's insulting for you to come to a professional domainers site, sign up as a new member, and voice such opinions with the regard you have.
Bottom line...if domains ever become property...domainers will suffer greatly...
Glad you guys are airing out your opinions. The question should present no bias. Its a simple question: "Are domains property?". One RESPONSE did reply to benefits and detriments of this (can be "attached" in non-domain related lawsuits - such as when someone runs over your foot and you sue them "for everything they've got and take their house").
As far as tax is concerned, it should matter not whether they're property or not. If they're not property, they may figure out a "Sales Tax" (not just on domains, but everything) and they have been. If you "flip" a domain - that's when it becomes more relevant. If you bought and held for over a year - sold a domain at a $100K profit, and bought a $150K domain (50K out of pocket) - there's no tax if it was "1031 Exchanged Property of 'like kind'". If you didn't buy Domain #2, it's taxed at lower capital gains rate. If it's not property - it's "income" and you have Income Tax potentials.
I wish the poll results favored everyone's impressions - but someone's got to win - rally your troops to vote!.
Labrocca - very well articulated argument. Oh - and unfortunately, domain owners are indeed "sued" for their domains - daily.
-'sucky' poll master (property leading 59%)..
Welcome to NP Jude.
I guess they baptized you here today...
Domains are a RENEWABLE CONTRACT RIGHT. I agree with Peter.
Making it a property just make things complicated, taxable, and worst... seizable...
Guys - I'm not "making" it anything - you are..
Thanks buymynames - I FEEL Welcome.
I'm from a family of ten - this stuff is far nicer than 4 older brothers beating the lunch money out of me..
That statement shows you don't have a grasp on the situation. Property is currently taxed in a variety of ways while RENEWABLE CONTRACT RIGHT's are NOT.
Yes when you sell a contract for a domain you pay tax on the income. Simple.
However if you turn domains into property...you can pay a tax just for owning the domain. They can tax you every goddamn year! And who is gonna appraise and value these domains? Let me guess on this one...VERISIGN? Yeah I can see it now where you have to get official appraisals just like on a house before you get a mortgage or sell it. By law you have to PAY to get an official appraisal on property. Now imagine that you need to have certified appraisals for your domains. You have 2 possible outcomes.
1. Domain is appraised very high and the tax will reflect that..
2. Domain is appraised very low and this could negatively effect the resale market.
Where is the positive of having domains as property? If you think that a bank is gonna give you a loan based on what domains you have your insane. There are however sources out there that (Digipawn) that do use a service to get you funds for your domains.
And let's say a bank gives you a loan based on your domains as collateral. Now you miss a payment and they seize your domain. Oh that's gonna be great!.
What you are proposing (and you are proposing it ..you don't fool anyone) is so damn dangerous to every member here that I am shocked you aren't banned yet...
Jude, This is Ron from DR. Fred backed out, but it's cool. Hope to see you in NY Hey Labrocca. Relax.....
Ummmm....that's for real property not personal property. Domains if for whatever reason were said to be property by law, they'd be personal property. Seizable being the key word.
There really is no advantage to have it as property except to maybe protect your ownership rights in a court of law if ICANN, Verisign or any registrar tried to take the domain away from you for whatever reason.
Imagine paying taxes on value and when you go to sell the domain you get less than you were taxed for. Remember a domains value is what someone is willing to pay for it or what it's worth to you. If someone said my domain was worth $10,000 and I'm taxed on that on a yearly basis and of course I go to sell it and can't get $100 for it from anyone, that's a big loss in taxation alone.
Of course then comes child support, divorce, civil, criminal and other legal matters where your assets might be looked at. That would be another nightmare in itself. Imagine I owned SexBusinessDiamond.com a domain valued at $29,000,000 what would the tax ramifications be on that or in a legal proceeding how would I cash that out?.
Remember domains whether they are leased or property are still tax deductible, they are still business expenses. Why even bother depreciating them? You can deduct your yearly renewals. You still have to pay taxes on the sales, no matter how you look at it. No reason to ban him. Everyone has their opinions on everything, his differs from your's and that's about it...
As far as tax is concerned, it should matter not whether they're property or not.
This statement alone shows there will be no progress with anything. It is very short side and frankly, maybe a little uninformed. (just read some of the responses) Oh - and unfortunately, domain owners are indeed "sued" for their domains - daily.
84% of challenges are to the TMs holders that proven cybersquatting. Are you in favor of cybersquatting? If you answer yes, then yes, domains owners are sued everyday because they are mostly cybersquatters which is illegal. If you answer no, then 14% are legit and the process is weeding out the squatters.
There is an option to the poll that is not there and should be.... Domains are a leased privilege (not a right)...
I don't think domains are property at all and it's even stated it's not..
If I was in debit for $250,000 and say I had a domain like sex.com anybody here would pay $x,xxx,xxx for that, now say if I had all my properties taken, wouldn't they take the domain aswell? you'd only have paid like $8 off your $250,000 debit because who can decide what domains are worth? there not a property, they are something you are leasing for the yearly fees you pay, paying for a domain for prices above reg fee are just purchasing there rights to lease the domain...
Do you own stock in a corporation? Is it TAXED every year? Is that stock "tangible" and perhaps certificates stacked in the shape of a home? I would hazard a guess of "no". If DN's were property it would be intangible property yes, but like Stock or a % interest in an LLC. these "interests" are NOT taxed annually like property taxes on homes (though, of course - LLC's and stock DIVIDENDS or SALES can of course result in INCOME tax NOT property tax).
Property tax on houses is under the United States constitution which leaves "police power" to the States and the States leave that to the Towns and Municipalities to collect "Property Tax" for schools and the costs of local government..
I have yet to hear of ANYONE paying "Federal Property" tax on their house or real estate as that is a privilege designated to Local Town Government. We need to expand our horizons BEYOND the U.S. as DN's are NOT a "U.S.-only" paradigm..
As far as labrocca's love for the idea of domains as property is concerned, while I appreciate a tyrannical rant as much as the next guy - lets clear the air about a few things to protect everyone:.
1) If I HAD an AGENDA to "make" DN's "property" (which as a mere mortal not higher deity I am remiss to suggest I have this power) - WHY then would I GO ON THIS FORUM when DN's were RAMPING FAST AND HARD towards "WINNING" as property on the poll - which is not only being heavily watched but will be undoubtedly relied on? Those opposed to DN's as Property have done a service to themselves and like-minded folks by narrowing the gap and reducing the amt of votes for "property"..
2) LB's comments RE: annual taxes. That, as my statements above exemplify (that there would be "federal" or "international property tax" is alarmist, and simply incorrect as there is no such thing. However, I'd caution against making comments like those in the future as these threads can be picked up by those working under the auspices of hungry bureaucrats (or politicians) who could pose the idea with the idea that the legislator becomes a "hero" and can use NASTY and TASTELESS domains as EXAMPLES against all of us to justify the tax (as some fiat to combat those names)..
3) As for TM's - NO, THE ICA DOES NOT SUPPORT BAD FAITH AND WILLFUL TM INFRINGEMENT. That is a QUALIFIED answer. The gentleman that owns: Zero.US (a US-centric domain which means NOTHING - literally "zero") being sued by ITALIAN tire Maker "Pirelli" for PZERO is RIDICULOUS. Who's domain should it be? Why not the creators of binary language? Some organization about the "equator"? The Fahrenheit family? Coke "Zero"? A so-numbered sports player? THE ANSWER IS NONE OF THEM - it should be the DN owner - who NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED.
HENCE - the EXISTENCE of THE ICA. THAT's what we're here for. There's a WAY to combat votes against your favor - and it's not getting P-O'd at the Exec. Director - it's called DEMOCRACY. Lobby and get others who are asleep interested - many simply do not understand or care what is at stake.
I'm happy to take a call from LB and get a lashing - heck I'll even put it on speakerphone - but I wanna keep those ideas out of the eyes of salivating bureaucrats.
Jude...as an executive director of an organization I gotta tell you. I think you have done a grave disservice to your ICA by posting what you have so far.
Stocks are a very different beast. Stocks are owned and traded in a very open market. It's an established system and at the end of the day you know the value of your stock. Every single domain is unique.
If your business is domains...you will have to pay tax on them on a STATE and LOCAL level. You can't claim you "live" in a domain. Declaring them property will force them into the asset column. Are you saying it's ok that we pay a state and local tax on domains? What in the world? "relied upon" "heavily watched"...by whom? You have less than 100 votes. The entire poll is slanted. It's an incredibly poorly worded poll for a site claiming to be a professional organization.
"Domains are Inventory"... is the same as declaring them property....
"Domains ultimately belong to the Supporting Registry" ...and how is that different than the answer "Domains are a RENEWABLE CONTRACT RIGHT."....the renewable contract is with the REGISTRY...duh.
"Domains are PROPERTY: (beneficial/lower capital gains treatment, assets that can be financed/valued by investor, depreciated)"...talk about slanted...nice rosy picture of how domains should be property. You give a nice description for the top answer that of course is gonna draw the most votes.
I suggest you kill the poll entirely and simply ask...
"Should domains to be considered property with all the positive and negative issues that other tangible inventory has?".
With 3 simple answers.
Is that so damn difficult?.
OH SNAP...btw...just read this on your site. http://www.internetcommerce.org/our_issues SO YOU ARE 100% BUSTED as a LIAR!.
I thought you didn't have an agenda to make domains property. Bullcrap...you do. It's your #1 issue on your site. WOW....now you gone and done it.
Jude Augusta...I will certainly be remembering the ICA...
LaBrocca - that was indeed copy before AS I STATED I joined the organization in February, and immediately we posted our Domain Owner's B.O.R. (Bill of Rights).
If your stock is TAXED annually then you need a CPA (and maybe some anger management wouldn't hurt). As far as your comment: "Stocks are owned and traded in a very open market." I'd like to point you to Sedo and Afternic. That's not just an open market - it's a global market..
I appreciate your suggestion to pull down the poll and the suggestion it is worthless. However, the people that will be the recipients of it's production are those on Capitol Hill - where we interact daily. As far as your comment: "you have done a grave disservice to your ICA by posting what you have so far." I apologize "my ICA" and the heavily slanted and agenda based poll has not courted your favor. As far as 100 votes - those are domainers of import from domain blogs and the blog is barely seasoned. As far as posting my name on the Internet - I am not sure what your objective is but do find it a bit unbecoming, other than possibly to promote me, and I thank you. If you would be so kind as to share yours to show your mettle I think it would say much about your fiber.
Again - instead of terse comment directed at yours truly - I propose a gentlemanly offer to speak on the phone and you can decide afterward whether personal resentment might commingle with domain legal opinion affecting this blog and other domain interest owners..
I do value your opinion and passion and would love to harness it, but short-fused posts on a public blog are not our best way to influence DC and beyond to our advantage. MAJOR interests on my BOARD share your opinion - but opinions differ even amongst them. Again, I make the offer..
Jude, the more you are posting the more the ICA appears to be out of touch with reality. It seems like the rantings of a lunatic (to put it bluntly) with an intense fear of "big brother". I read some transcripts I found on the net and I am not impressed. You reasoning seems to be misguided and your own self reasoning jsut makes you look bad. To be honest, if my ED (or previous ones) acted like you, I would be job hunting. Like I said before, I understand where you are coming from, but the vision is very very narrow, and in this world, that will not get you far.
BTW- my stocks are only taxed when I receive dividends or I sell them.
PS- I still believe this thread is to drive traffic to the ICA site.....
Thanks guys - you're too kind. I am familiar tax-recognition events with regards to stocks, we're in agreement...
Yeah I am blowing up and getting heated over this. It's not helping me be rational. btw...look under my Avatar..."name: Jesse Labrocca" and you can whois ANY of my domains and see my actual whois information along with telephone number. Yeah...I might call you when I have some time. You just seem hell bent on a strategy to go to capital hill and ask politicians to place domains as property. I don't know where you get the authority to do that on behalf of domainers...you remind me of a lobby group for big oil or pharmaceuticals.
If you want an agenda to do some good for domainer. Here is something...
Get capital hill to look at ICANN and how it regulates the internet. Figure out why these contracts to the registrars is taking place even though public opinion is very much against them. We are seeing across the board price increases while the registrars are having their costs fall. ICANN is suppose to be looking out for the internets users NOT the registrars. Those contracts are worth billions and they aren't fair.
I fear you are acting in a manner no different than ICANN where you disregard the general public and especially everyday domainers.
I want to also know more about your "not-for-profit" status and have you legally filed papers to be one. I have no problems creating trouble for an organization that is bilking money under false pretenses. Have you filed with the government to be a nonprofit org? If not I will have a serious problem. I expect some form of proof of this as well so I can ask Uncle Sam about it.
Lastly...if you are really serious about convincing domainers that domains should be property..I want to see the reasons why. Can you produce a well written document with all the positives and negatives of this action? If you can't do that then your chances of getting this into the hands of senate are practically nil. Your low-quality poll simply speaks volumes about the type of organization ICA is...
Labrocca - unfortunately my message is not reaching you - I and The ICA aren't opting for any particular status. Members of our own Board disagree as to whether Domains are property. I have to unfortunately give up on your posts here as you seem to refuse to believe anything other than what your established opinion was. We're on other Boards/blogs that are having this discussion without resulting to petty commentary. We are Licensed as a Non Profit in Texas. Honestly, we need help hammering out these issues, keeping ICANN tame, and keeping Congress educated as to our interests, as well as need help determining what those interests generally are as a group - which is why a poll was posted.
Hehe...the second I ask you to convince me you give up! Unfortunately the ICA is being represented by you. You don't stand a chance in Washington. I think DNQuest is right...and you just want some traffic. btw...what's these other sites you speak about? Cuz if I find them I will surely join and post as I have here. I told you I have no problem countering the damage you are attempting to create.
If you could intelligently lay out the argument why domains should become property I would certainly listen. You have NOT done that to any degree. Instead you have avoided questions and given poor responses.
Your site has almost no information. It's poorly laid out with very little news for domainers. If you have an agenda you should have a well written statement to argue the logic behind it. You do not. Everything I read at your site in all the PDF and DOCs are dribble nonsense. It's an attempt to look official but it doesn't pass the test.
Also ...it's an established FACT not my opinion that domains are NOT property. You have presented zero argument why they should be...
Labrocca - lemme get that list together for you lickety split.
You're right. I inherited a site I feel needs a complete overhaul. Would you believe I talked with one domainer today in FL who's agreed to do all of the coding as a testament to the cause? I'm talking to another tonight at 10:00 PM who wants to help with the design. We're cooperating toward a goal. I'm happy to chat, but honestly don't have time to hash out every facet over the keyboard. I would honestly embrace a phone call and maybe you'd find I'm not so horrible and even, perhaps, you might redirect your energy and graft your passions into The ICA...
I understand that stocks are only taxed if they you are paid dividends on it or of course sell them. Of course domains are taxable if you make money on them, anything is taxable if you make money off of it. But like stock you would not be allowed to do a 1031 exchange (and hopefully you never will with domains). My personal preference is domains having no value (except for what you paid for them), of course when you sell them and not being personal property, especially when it comes time to see your assets for legal or any other possible reason. You can only do these exchange with certain things and of course like I mentioned before real estate (real property) is the most or one of the most common exchanges.
By the way if you would like to see the 1031 exchange law here's a link that tells you exactly what it is http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26...1000-.html you'll notice these particular items don't apply and I'm sure if there was a revision domains would be on that list:.
(A) stock in trade or other property held primarily for sale,.
(B) stocks, bonds, or notes,.
(C) other securities or evidences of indebtedness or interest,.
(D) interests in a partnership,.
(E) certificates of trust or beneficial interests, or.
(F) choses in action.
At least these things have some kind of value, and are guaranteed by something, nothing is promised or backing domains. Domains are just spaces in the registry...
Deu12000 - my preference is that domains have "no value" too! !.
Cracked up - anyway, you're dead on - typically, but that's why in posts I said: "MAY" qualify for a 1031 exchange. For example, automobile fleets or collectibles bought for business purposes, as well as perhaps antiques and fine art are not "real estate" - but ARE "Property" for purposes of attempting 1031 Exchanges: http://www.1031deferredexchange.com/1031/finearts.html.
"Personal property exchanges range from exchanges of corporate jets, commercial aircraft, ships, and other individual, big-ticket products to fleets of automobiles, trucks, heavy equipment and computer equipment. Intangible, personal property, such as broadcast licenses, copyrights, and franchise licenses, qualify for 1031 exchange treatment. Gold coins, paintings, and other collectibles may also be exchanged." http://www.transunionexchange.com/pe..._exchanges.asp..
How do the other members outside the board "feel" about this? Do they even.
Know, much more understand, this issue to begin with?..
Even cows are eligible for 1031 exchange as long as they are the same sex, the point isn't only what's eligible for what. The point is you call something property and bankruptcies, and many other possible legal issues arise and your domains will be taken from you.
By the way Jude some people are mad at you, but I do commend you for sticking to your guns (even though you're wrong in my opinion). I think if we keep talking to you we'll convince you that you might have made the wrong choice. It takes a man to admit he's wrong. I've made mistakes, okay I'm lying I'm perfect and have never made a mistake...
Changing the subject a bit I notice when doing a whois on the domain name you show up as RegTek Whois Envoy which is a service by Registration Technologies.
I can understand domain owners using such a service but surely an organisation such as yours (as well as DNOA) should show transparency...
Woah!!! After all of these disagreements, no one bothered to check the whois until now....It almost sounds like a nail...going into the...anyway time to fix your whois if you want to have even an ounce of reputation in any domain circle...
Unless I'm mistaken, Jude here is a woman. Their site isn't even listing who it's board members are. But perhaps all those.
Details will be put up in "due time"?..
Jude is a guy...I thought a girl at first too but it's a he. He also used to work for Sedo.
I saw the whois when I first started in this thread. Whois protection is a bit spineless imho but it does serve a purpose for some.
I am getting this impression of ICA being a bit unorganized. With Jude mentioning the site falling into his lap and all. I have no idea what he means by that but whatever...he also has a law degree but doesn't appear to be a lawyer (couldn't pass the bar maybe?). http://icannwiki.org/Jude_Augusta..
So far I am unimpressed with ICA. Any thought of me joining seems to have disappeared with the rather unintelligent/unthoughtful posts of the ICA's rep.....
I agree with Jesse here. If you want to put the ICA's name on the map, pick your battles a little better. We need leaders NOW! Help us drag ICANN into the light so that everyone can see how ugly they truly are...
Unfortunately, organizations are only as strong as it's leadership...
Ok, I got a good answer for this one..
Domains are *virtual property*.
In that sense, they are not real property, but in the virtual internet world they are.
Anyhow, seriously, the fact is you are leasing the right to use the domain, you don't own it per se. If you could register a name for life (paid up front with an expiration date of 05/05/2150, then that, for all purposes would make it property...
That's the only benefit imho of having domains as property. I would be able to even will them to my children. However that would of course kill the drop market entirely. It might also skyrocket the value of domains but sadly I have a feeling ICANN would just keep releasing extensions diminishing the value over time...
Give it some time guys, let's see how domainers will benefit from ICA.
It seems like we're all in the same goal here... protect our domains.
I know Jude, and he's a cool guy, Labrocca, why don't you just give him a call.....
The legal term is "intellectual property". The whole basis of copyright, trademark, UDRP, WIPO, etc. Also known as intangible property.
You don't really own a domain. You own the exclusive right to use and renew it, and transfer that right.
Very similar to a TM for a slogan or trade name. You don't own the words or letters themselves, you own the right to use them for a specific unique purpose in a specific unique combination.
Domains are NOT tangible property...
Yes I agree..
If you carefully read what I wrote, I was playing with the notion that If a domain could be bought for life (or forever), then it would be property..
There would be no renewals..
I am not advocating this, I was just throwing an example...
In some respects, the categorization of private property may not really be the issue (though in real terms it soon will be); the real issue might be the seemingly devious way the ICA may be subverting a polling system (and organizations like NP) in order to gain the results they desire and may use in future political agendas....
The ICA seems to be purposely, and unapologetically, conducting biased polls in order to create some sort of "legitimate" database of public responses and beliefs. By wording a survey thusly, it actively encourages voters to agree with a belief that the ICA wants to propagate, but is in fact may be in the opposite interests of the deceived voter. Even worse, these "legitimate" results can (and will?) be used by ICA to lobby political groups and individuals to accept their organizational belief system while saying it's only what the voting public said they want. "A poll of professional domain traders from the organization of........ or ........ confirms that domains should be considered private property" or some such nonsense.
The last thing I want is to "grafted" into an organization with undisclosed agendas and questionable practices. I don't want anyone to think the ICA represents me on any issue...poll or no poll...
IMHO it's not a question of whether domain names should be property. It's a.
Question of what rights end users "should" have towards them...
Great post! Hear, hear!.
BTW, Verbster I tried to leave you rep but apparently NP thinks I'm too fond of you...
Guys - one of the major reasons for the Poll was because our Board members disagree. if you actually read through all of the posts - there are good arguments either way (contract right or property) as well as virtues and vices of each. While people don't read posts and make comments as to "The ICA is purposefully advocating X, Y, Z" - the honest to goodness truth is we're trying to get your pulse - especially that of members, so that on Capitol Hill we can protect whatever that interest is.
BEFORE YOU RESPOND - PLEASE READ THE POSTS THROUGH as you may be damaging the industry with "a little information being a dangerous thing"..
Guys - I have to say I'm disapointed. Jesse, I again, for the third time extend the offer to speak. Again, you have just posted incorrect information damaging to The ICA and domainers. I am indeed a member of the Massachusetts Bar Association, an honors MBA student, an adjunct professor, a Rotarian and active community assistant, a member of a local church, a bad golfer, a bad shot at clay pigeon discs at a local Rod & Gun, and in general - a human being..
While insulting comments seem to be in no short supply, I can't say it's not disappointing. I'm trying here guys.
There is no agenda - other than this: As a human being - I am asking for your kind help.
I am going to post a tel # and password for a conference call where all interested parties can dial in and participate - or just listen...
I have two cats, a dog, a great wife, a low handicap, no church affiliation, lots of education, an inflatable boat, an open mind, no earth to moon travel miles and a weakness for chocolate cake...like you, a human being, only there's nothing in general about it.
You are disturbed by what you perceive as insults. I am disturbed by what I perceive as a hidden agenda, unashamedly misleading rhetoric and incongruencies that just don't add up (your own board disagrees on a fundamental tenet of your organization, so you take our "pulse" with a biased poll in order to decide which direction your organization should go?).
You post unsubstantiated, scary stuff like "you may be damaging the industry" and expect it to go unrebutted?.
Not once have you offered to retract your biased survey and replace it with a truly neutral poll which would reflect accurate member results.
You don't say you won't use the results of the biased poll...just the opposite. You want to use the inaccurate data to lobby on Capital Hill. Do you think a member should just let that pass?.
You step into this forum representing an organization not familiar to NP, conduct a flawed poll and tell us you're going to now represent us in Washington because you now know what we want and what's best for us....despite discord on your own board? Would you respect us if we didn't sound off about this?.
It's not enough to form an organization and say you're going to lobby for the good of us all: you actually have to know what that "good" is...and you have to gain the support and respect of those you want to represent. It's not your right to just step in and say you're going to lobby for us and what you think we want; it's a privilege you must earn by gaining our respect and trust. Do you think that's what you're accomplishing?.
Post your conference number. Let's hear us all. Make no mistake: I may appear as an adversary now, but I am willing to hear you out and consider what you say. If I am convinced, I will support you. I would expect the same of you.
Well said Randall...I am glad the sentiment from most the Namepros members is consistent. We don't like your poll Jude and we don't like the mission of your ICA.
You also are in no way trying to get a pulse. You obviously aren't liking what we have to say because it conflicts with your own personal beliefs on how domains should be handled.
Also I asked you to attempt to convince me as well that domains should be property. You have not done so.
I realize Jude that speaking to you won't get anything done. As you are an admitted lawyer (god help us all) that's something I know will create a problem. Lawyers are normally strong in their views because they believe they know enough about the law to speak on others behalfs. Which is certainly the case here. Uh...no you're not. You are asking us to agree with you. If you want help you would listen to our suggestions of removing that poll and replacing it with one that's unbiased...
LB - join us.
Dial-In Number: 641-297-7250.
Participant PIN: 962196.
PS - whoever is on the call WRITES the new "unbiased" poll.
Is that fair?.
(we're waiting here - come on guys I won't bite!).
LB thanks for taking me from "Probably didn't pass the bar" (which I apologize Verbster for taking as inflammatory or insulting) to (I realize Jude that speaking to you won't get anything done. As you are an admitted lawyer (god help us all) that's something I know will create a problem). Its a step up!..
I just now saw the invitation for the conference. Called, but I must have been too late as I was the only participant.
Maybe setting a specific time would help, unless no one else is going to be involved.
As for mixing it up with lawyers, well, I'll speak slower and with fewer syllables....;-)..
After reading this thread, it is clear the ICA is quite incompetent and will NOT get a single penny when I attend TRAFFIC...
Looks like Namepros members have spoken on the poll on the site. Domains are property is no longer winning the poll.
Domains are PROPERTY 42%.
Domains are a RENEWABLE CONTRACT RIGHT. 51%.
Domains ultimately belong to the Supporting Registry. 5%.
Domains are Inventory. 2%.
Of course I think you should start the poll again and use different wording, since what is up now is extremely slanted...
Verbster - you have the direct number from the website.
CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR VOTES! A LITTLE THING CALLED DEMOCRACY WORKS APPARENTLY AFTER ALL...
If you believe that, then you'll now lobby that domains are a renewable contract right, yes?..
Verbster - we're not lobbying either position, only REPORTING the results..
I have exhausted all opportunities in attempting to get the point across - personally, I saw the merits of this argument long before these flattering blog posts, but my job is only to help and report, not posture and promote. I will say this, it's not easy being in these shoes especially when you're of a not-to-distant inclination of those nipping at your flesh. I can tell you this much: I'm relieved.
BTW gents, as for earlier posts, I'll clear the air:.
1) Admitted - new to NamePros - thanks for the warm welcome.
2) Been in domains only since 2005 admittedly as well. Ran Bus. Dev. @ Sedo. If you need a favor there, I'm close with those gentlemen..
3) No, I certainly don't pretend to know everything all domainers want - especially since so many disagree :-).
4) The "Obviously jaded poll" is now favoring you guys in this particular thread are you SURRRRRRRRE you want me to change it - b/c it was in the works.
4) The past is water under the Bridge...
They don't have to. Registrars have already done that...
Well - maybe we can get a registrar to sign up then with your poll results.
1. New to namepros is fine...welcome..
2. New to domaining is fine but don't represent us when in truth you are not here long enough to even know us..
3. Then you should start by learning instead of making presumptions.
4. If you have an unfair poll expect unfair voting..
5. Cliches won't earn you respect nor forgiveness.
If you want this past you need to take steps to ensure fair representation of domainers in your ICA. The first step might be clarification of it's history and positions. You stated that you have inherited the site. Did you bother to read it before posting here? You should make sure you agree with it's statements and mission before advertising it. You have stated nothing here that makes us think you disagree.
Domainers for years have argued over the merits of domains being property. It's been fairly clear that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Have you bothered to even do a measurement of both possibilities before starting your poll? What research did you do to consider both sides? What evidence do you present to us that domains being property will be advantageous?.
Who is the ICA? Just you?..
AHA - good questions..
Yes - my review of the ICA resulted in requests for total revamp. Domainers stepped up to the challenge: Derek Prueitt and Tia Woods for example. I'm talking with Tia at 10:00 p.m. Night owl I guess. Jesse - the site is - honestly, a mess! I had a new logo made and want - well basically, a WHOLE NEW SITE.
The first thing we did was create a domain name owner's Bill of Rights because we're SICK of having DN Owners taken advantage of by rev. hijackers, Covetous companies under a guise of Trademark Infringement, Media painting us ALL as @*@(&@(: http://internetcommerce.org/files/Do...e%20Writer.pdf.
We're trying to promote Domain Investing as a credible business in Washington and in Media (the court of public opinion). Just because guys on this blog were SMARTER and FASTER than someone else to get a domain, and that causes ENVY, that gives NO RIGHT to covetous interests to come claiming "TM infringement!!!!!" The PZero.US example TICKS ME OFF. ZERO!?!?!?!?!? COME ON! Its the MOST BILATERALLY GENERIC DOMAIN IN THE WORLD! It means NOTHING! Pirelli? An ITALIAN Tire Maker claiming it's their "PZero" brand - a ".US" - INFURIATING..
Sorry - off topic. Anyway, there are a couple of bad apples that make us look bad. We're combating that. Its a SMALL minority. We are developing (again with the aid of a blog poster of merit - Bob - I'll let him fill in later) a "Domain Owner's Code of Ethics" so that we can show the world we're on the up and up..
We hold ICANN's feet to the fire. Watch the progression of our Releases: ICANN drops the ball, nothing happens, we hold it up in front of the world, ICANN reacts: Repeat Process. Newsletter coming out soon - interviews of domainers in there. Interesting stuff.
Who is the ICA - yep - it's just me ;-) Kidding:.
About The ICA:.
The Internet Commerce Association is a professional organization of domain name interest holders participating in decisions affecting domain name pricing and governance. The membership includes individual domain-name holders. The Board is comprised of membership representing: Domain Investor Frank Schilling, Ron Jackson & DNJournal.com, TARGETEDTRAFFIC.com, Oversee.net, IREIT, Sedo.com, Straat Investments, and Neulaw.com.
FYI: Before you get to excited - check out the Registrar of: www.Official-IREIT-TRADEMARK.com.
Hmmm.... nice ads.
NOTE BTW in our tagline (in all press posts): "domain name interest holders" THAT is the official opinion you sought.
Can we all at least agree that Ryan Seacrest sucks?..
No because I had to google his name to even know who he is. I am too busy on the internet working to care about some TV show such as that.
I read your post as a lot of lip service.
And your issue with zero.us and Pirelli places Pirelli as the target not the domainer...so you should be working to somehow protect the domainer. Exactly how do you intend to do this by convincing people in washington domains are property?.
If domains become property doesn't that mean all the real estate is under the jurisdiction of the USA because that's where it was invented? Or are the domains under a New World Order type of society? What if my domain is pointed to a server in Amsterdam? Do I pay my taxes based on Amsterdam or the USA?.
Your bill of rights btw has the wrong URL to your site..it has the .com not the .org. Did you even bother to proof read it? Sloppy. They have a perfect right to make the claim. If the zero.us people do defend it properly I am convinced they will win this. As a lawyer you should be concerned about making sure ALL parties have fair rights. If Pirelli wants to damage it's reputation amongst domainers from this action they have that right.
To be fair there are lots of unscruplous domainers. Do you want to protect them as well? Exactly what is wrong in your view with the current system and how will the ICA work to change it? You claim Sedo as a board member. They are not domainers. As a matter of fact Sedo may work against the interests of domainers. Sedo is NOT a domainers organization. They are a tool that domainers use and they have their own agenda.
I am sure because of you position with ICANN and Sedo that you have a few friends willing to give you the thumbs up on this project but that doesn't make you creditable. The opposite as a matter of fact...it wreaks of cronyism. Domain Investing? Don't you mean squatting really? Obviously Sedo would love domains to be registered by the buttload without fear of TM problems and parked at it's service. What is domain investing in your opinion? Is domain investing buying unlimited property for later sale to an end-user? Not all domainers park their names...many like me develop and I consider myself an end-user for the most part.
You seem to represent people that use domains as a market instead of being part of the internet. Domains are a means to create a place on the internet. If it wasn't for that fact domains would be worthless...
With that in mind, one could claim that all domains are "market properties" in the same sense that while they could never be owned houses they are forever structured in apartment mode, managed by "landlords" (registrars), and lived in by "tenants" (domainers).
Maybe at this point we could use a little "rent control," though, in the form of an industry-wide law that would lock in a standard annual fee for domains, at least for a few decades. That way, a $10 domain in 2007 would still cost $10 in 2037.
Meanwhile, since I've got the attention of all of you, let me introduce myself as Ellwood "Smith," of the newly-formed ICANT organization. It consists of myself, my brother Jake "Smith" and a few other guys - all of whom have passed the bar - in fact, we've passed it many times, since it's kind of a local hangout here in Chicago.
What we'll be doing is lobbying a bunch of crooked politicians so they'll agree to give all domainers a fair shake regarding the crooked ICANN scam they already run. Why they'd ever do this for us is a complete and total mystery, but we still have hope.
After reading this post, which I've also cut-and-pasted on tons of other domain-related boards, please go immediately to our website at skummyscam.org, and fill out our slanted poll.
Jesse - you have an agenda of simple meanness and refuse to engage any diplomacy. That is disheartening.
I CONVEYED that links are broken and that two domainer volunteers are volunteering time on a revamp..
I CONVEYED that a VERY reputable person is working on a Code Of Ethics to weed out unscrupulous domainers..
I CONVEYED that the VOTES NOW SHOW DOMAINS ARE A CONTRACT RIGHT..
I CONVEYED the BATTLES we've had and do have with ICANN..
I've CONVEYED who are team is and their obvious merits..
I've CONVEYED our challenges.
& I've CONVEYED our requests for help.
I've RECEIVED petty, mean-spiritedness, and passionate posts without without reading the previous posts.
Blues - I agree with some of your posting. I think Rebel.com is allowing people to "lock in" a renewal rate fee. As far as why legislators and the media would listen - all we can do is make enough noise and show enough support...
Jude_ICA - I have to say I joined NamePros as product of an UDRP on my BEST domain which was B.S. but I WON. I was psyched to see this topic and immediately went to it, then P/O'd that "The ICA wants domains to be property" - then read the posts and realized not only that you are NOT saying that - but seem to suggest it's better that they are NOT. The ONLY criticism I have is that you are WASTING TIME talking to people that are simply RUDE and JUVENILE and WILL NOT CHANGE. Stop wasting time - leave this blog and represent us elsewhere where you can help. You'll get NOTHING here obviously? Why bother? You seem like a nice guy trying, for the most part (save a few) a couple are simply NOT - MOVE ON.
Diplomacy, doesn't always work. Give it...
Folks - Play nice Or I'll turn this Forum around and we'll all go home !.
Okay - That doesn't hold the same Strength as the threats when travelling on Vacation ...
But we all can answer questions and carry on a Civilized Discussion here IMO without being so Judgemental and Harsh ....
Whether you like the Direction the ICA is going or not ... There are some Respected people in this industry (IMO) who are backing it at least verbally so far. I'm in the process of moving ATM - So the only opinion I have currently is "We've never used that thing Baby , Let's give it to the Salvation Army instead of moving or Storing it".
Please Play Nice.
I am leaning toward taking back my statement(s) above now ... And was going to close this Thread altogether after Seeing you "Micro-Manage" and "Jude_ICA" are logging in from the same system ....
Acting as if you don't know Jude_ICA ? That YOU just stumbled in here one hour after Jude's last post ? .
A bit disheartening to me .... and takes away from anything I've read so far.
Mark - Phew! I'm glad there's a "Dad" around here! I hope I wasn't too presumptuous, but I was INFURIATED at this guy "Jude" and then read on and thought - "wait a minute, this guy's not so bad - and seems to be actually attempting diplomacy and 'do-gooder' stuff - but at the expense of him and the group he's with." I thought he needed a wake-up call since other people, like yours truly, start to read these posts as "law" and don't go through ALL of them but pick off things like: "So The ICA WANTS domains to be property" which infuriated me - but read on to find it wasn't true. I think the guy's problem is - he's trying to act like a non-lawyer, but is one. I know taxes - and "Beneficial Tax Treatment" is a term of art in taxes - as is "preferential tax treatment" - it doesn't mean you "prefer" it, just means you can depreciate and only pay a MAX of Cap Gains. He needs to write like a layman - not like a legal beagle. I'll be nice - glad to see this stuff policed as I don't want lawyers picking up on posts that are contrary to my interests. Besides - I voted, I'm winning the poll!..
I'm impressed with Jude's patience... But I have to agree with Micro. They'll keep digging holes for ICA, and you'll keep going around in circle with these guys, and I do believe that it's time to move on. I was right from the beginning, domains are 'renewable contract right'.
I somewhat agree with LB in regards to registrar's involvement in your group, they have a totally different agenda. I just hope that Frank and other domainers from your group will manage to balance this out.
I've been around in this industry long enough to know that we're lucky to have groups like ICA, DNOA, etc..
I'm also new to NP... so trust me.. I've learned that this is a tough group to beat/ or even join... But I do think that we're all in the same ship here, pushing out someone from this ship is pointless...
Goodluck and thanks Jude.
'Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas'.
Where do you belong?..
Guys - this is pleasure to some, pain to Others. The ICA has no opinion, but loves the data. Either way, we're establishing that domain-investors own SOME INTEREST in domains that must be recognized by those that would covet them! Whatever the tax treatment (cap. gains or "preferential" or "regular income") - regardless, they're ours. Thanks for the continued votes! Your input is great!..
I am leaning toward taking back my statement(s) above now ... And was going to close this Thread altogether after Seeing you "Micro-Manage" and "Jude_ICA" are logging in from the same system ....
Acting as if you don't know Jude_ICA ? That YOU just stumbled in here one hour after Jude's last post ? .
A bit disheartening to me .... and takes away from anything I've read so far.
Unbelievable!!!!! It is amazing what people will do to further thier own agenda. How abuot banning Micro-Manage"? People don't need 2 IDs here unless they are trying to pull a fast one. Jude, I have been nice to you and tried to see it from your side. But at this point, trying to deceive us like this is unreal. I think at this point, if you want to do good, start being honest. You pass yourself as doing what the "board" tells you to do.
ADD: so how many new members will be supporting the ICA and defending them now?..
Now answer the part at the bottom of his thread which he edited not long before you posted...
Point remains the same and proven. Thankfully redundantly as Mark stepped in - not before people "agreed". Bears tied to stakes. This is in LIEU of the new thread posted prior: http://www.namepros.com/showthread.p...43#post1935243.
Poll: "Domains Are Contracts" Winning over "Property" by Bounds!.
The test seemed to work perfectly, but I'd like to cover the new post. It'll be interesting to see if it is maintained with the title merely reversed..
Jude, the ICA has no opinion?? Please read the following, I got it off the ICA website... Our Issues:.
The Internet Commerce Associations legislative agenda includes but is not limited to several key issues: Legislative Agenda for Protection of Domains and Domain Holders:.
Domains be recognized as private property and domain owners have the rights of private property owners as well as working with the appropriate US government agencies to see these policies pursued within WIPO as well as in bilateral and multilateral trade talks.
Higher standards be set for domain name challenges by Trademark holders allowing universality and uniqueness as required measures for dispute resolution.
Alternative licensing fee systems be established resulting in the consideration of click-through navigation for dispute resolution among similar domains.
Modification of the tax code to allow for accelerated depreciation of domain names.
Promote fairness in the consideration of consumers costs of annual domain name registration and related fees.
Participate fully in the battle to eliminate click fraud.
Participate in discussions regarding Internet governance, including the future role and transparency of ICANN, its relationship with the U.S. government, the administration of the generic top level domains (gTLDs) and the pricing of related domain name registrations, and the rules and laws relating to the WHOIS database.
Establishment of a best practices guideline to help IP professionals unwind legal disputes in an efficient manner and to set acceptable use guidelines for members relating to domain name creation, ownership and implementation...
Mark - as stated previously - I JOINED THE ICA RECENTLY AND THE BOARD IS IN DISAGREEMENT AND IS TRYING TO HONE A COHESIVE OPINION OF OUR CONSTITUENCY. YOUR DAMAGING COMMENTS ARE RETARDING THAT EFFORT FOR ALL OF US. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PULLING OLD MATERIAL INTO A NEW DISCUSSION...
Jude_ICA you and Micro-Manage (in other words YOU) are skirting around the issue, user Micro-Manage comes here claiming to not know you and to be backing you up yet he is most likely using the same computer as you.
Are you going to explain why?????.
You have accused people of not reading the thread properly yet you are either doing this exact thing or you are blatantly ignoring what you do not wish to answer.
Also in a previous post it was asked why the ICA have their whois hidden, if you wish to have any credibility why not show it?..
I JUST EXPLAINED THAT We were DRAWING PEOPLE OF SIMILAR OPINION OUT?.
Also - I don't know why the WHOIS is hidden. I bought it through BuyDomains and they "Auto-Registered" it with a partner, and that apparently is the default status...
Read The Posts Properly.
MARK states:- So it is drawing people out with the same opinions ON THE SAME SYSTEM IS IT!!!!.
You are either very stupid (now surely that can;t be the case with the qualifications you have) or are trying to avoid the subject. If you wish to try and stand for our rights you are going to have to read, know what the MAJORITY of people ACTUALLY want.
Regarding the whois the following is what came up just this second:- This is the details for http://www.registrationtek.com/ who offer free email and identity protection and as far as I am aware have nothing to do with BuyDomains (although I could be wrong)..
Right - it's hidden As RegTek - who's address should we use?..
The ICA's details obviously. You claim it is registered in Texas I believe you said (it was Texas right) then why not use the same details that the organization was used.
AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED YOUR MULTIPLE REGISTRION..
Moving to Thread:.
Request for Public Comments and Dialogue on ICANN's Performance..
WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANSWERING THE QUESTION WHY ARE YOU PURPOSELY AVOIDING THE QUESTIONS.
Maybe it is because you can't?..
So after reading all of this, especially the absolute unwillingness to answer why "micro-manage" joined and logged in from Jude's computer system....and then acted as if he didn't know Jude, you still think ICA is honest and transparent? Watching Jude try to misdirect and avoid this very serious issue in his last posts doesn't bother you?.
I'm very much in favor of domainers having a unified front that is represented in D.C. or wherever, but the person or entity doing the representing needs to be totally up-front. There's nothing to hide, nothing to hedge on or avoid. There's an action-oriented platform that should contain clear-cut goals to achieve...in a clear-cut way....by a clear-cut organization...
Mico-manage is Jude....you can tell by how there has to be at least one all-caps word. It's sort of like how I use "..." quite often in my posts. Jude has a poor habit of using all-caps which is terrible grammar for anyone that is a lawyer. Most lawyers I know have impeccable grammar. I try to use good grammar myself especially in this type of conversation where your intelligent argument and how they are presented ultimately win you favor. This is obviously why Jude is out of favor.
Jude obviously isn't getting all our responses. It's noteworthy that those who have responded are generally well-respected members (excluding myself of course..hehe). It's hard to envision a day where ICA does any good for domainers as an organization.
Jude...you should just take your site down if it's not representative of the ICA's ideals. I went from being mean spirited with my first couple posts to just sad for you. I have rarely seen a person get hammered by the populace as you have. And even more rare someone not understanding what's happening. The internet is a small place. It's not nearly as big as you might think.
The names you drop...we all know who they are or have met them. The sites you will want to visit and promote ICA...we visit too. The damage you have done here in this thread will in all likelihood follow you for a long time. Maybe not personally but for the ICA...
I think I've demonstrated the logic REPEATEDLY. I'd again offer everyone a conference call and speak as men, or play with name calling in the recess yard here.
LaBrocca - you're BRILLIANT! Do us a favor - Go work for ICANN. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that you already do. NOW it's clear...
You still haven't owned up to this "micro-manage" fiasco. How can you deliberately avoid this issue without understanding it's impact on you and the ICA? If it's a rogue employee or something, let us know. Otherwise, we have no other course except to believe it was you...trying to deceive us.
Calls are great, but the one thing they don't do is capture everything on paper...
The problem here is that the topic has changed to your ethics rather than the issue of domains. That's why you need to clear the air with the "micro-manage" issue.
And, wow...look at your last post...talk about calling the kettle black. Is that how someone who wants to represent us all should act? It's another weak attempt at misdirection. Go home...
With all the time you've spent on NP lately, you could have edited all of the "old," injurious content on your site. As long as it's up on your site, it means it's valid. Take it down, or include a disclaimer explaining what's going on. Getting mad at someone for using what's currently on your site is a bit backward, isn't it?..
Hehe...always interesting to see a person unwind. That would be some incredible guess of yours that I work for ICANN being I am one of it's more critical detractors. Name calling? You consider criticism of your grammar name-calling? hehe...again...you just seem so new to this whole internet thing it's making me just laugh.
An example of name-calling would be "Jude is a n00b". Hmm..that sort of rhymes doesn't it?.
As for demonstrating the logic REPEATEDLY...oh no you don't. You have demonstrated something repeatedly but it's not logic.
Btw...Jude offers to speak with me was rescinded via a PM. Apparently his offer to speak with me mano-a-mano wasn't genuine. I asked if he had skype and next thing I know he freaks out and says his offer is rescinded. I guess he has a slight problem differentiating attacks on the ICA from himself. I can see that happening since basically he is the ICA. I don't know you Jude.
Instead you have pushed many of us domainers away all in one thread. Imagine the damage you can do if you make another stance...
Verbster - I am HAPPY to post anything, but I've found that the BEST business people build rapport - of that we have NONE. If you guys refuse to speak - than let that be "recorded" as "unfortunate". I've never LIVED on blogs and frankly, would find it saddening if I did..
When you guys want to speak. CALL. You have the number. Unfortunately - I can just blog all day.
Labrocca - I immediately ACCEPTED the offer to SKYPE after you refused to talk. I posted the same. I LATER rescinded when I realized it would be an exercise in futility. The ICA has PLENTY of friends. I am embarrassed for you...
This by no way is a personal attack, but rather some advice. I would advise you (and/or any other ICA rep) to stop posting until the ICA figure out what your mission is. Some people have been more tactful than others towards you/ICA, but the main point is that an organization is judged by it's PR, which includes what it's representatives say, what it's webpage says, press releases, etc. Therefire, in order to reduce confusion and maintain credibility, I would advise first figuring out what ICA stands for...
Thanks Fonzie - we're actually trying to poll constituents and get that mission gelled. While certain people are simply disgruntled regardless, I agree with you. We have participants who've offered to help with the front and the back end of the WebSite - which is being revamped. The Mission in general is to protect Domain Monetization as an industry, as well as to protect the domain interests against covetous attackers..
My old cat was Fonzie...
Okay...What do you wish to discuss on the phone? Domains as property or the ICA and you?.
You still did not address the "micro-manage" debacle...
I believe I've disagreed with Labrocca on more than one occasion, but I've never doubted that he is a bright guy. Actually, I seem to recall Labrocca calling for me to be banned when I first came to NamePros trying to track down a rumor I'd heard on another forum. But you can't just wander into a forum and fling poo at someone who has been here for years.
Respect on internet forums is earned, and if you are the newbie, you have to accept that people are suspicious of the new medicine wagon every time it rolls into town.
Micro-Manage, may we have a link to your UDRP decision, so that we might benefit from it?..
EVERYTHING. Either you guys are in - or out. Let your mettle hereby be recorded as diplomatic or otherwise...
JBH you must have me confused with someone else. I am one of your biggest fans sir. You have nothing but my respect and adulation. I have corresponded with you via PM on a couple occassions. You haven't been around too much lately though. Hope things are well with you.
Now back to our show.
Jude it just came to my mind that you want to represent domainers with your organization but I wonder. How many domains do you own? Can you give us a personally history of you in the domain industry? What credentials do you have that would lend credibility to your ICA...
Guys - all done here. On other duties and posts..
Thanks for the participation. For those I'm speaking with - thank you...
On the contrary, don't you know that kind of leadership skill is how many "GREAT" organizations started?..
I guess it's those you either agree with or believe you can sway. You certainly know how to speak...but do you know how to listen? That's a true leadership quality. You sir have not listened...
Pretty cute trick how ol' Jude Law gets his thread locked down, so he just opens up the exact same topic on another thread. What a genius! The powers that be here REALLY like that kind of willingness to follow the rules.
Meanwhile, earlier Peter had a good question for you, Jude:.
"Jude_ICA you and Micro-Manage (in other words YOU) are skirting around the issue, user Micro-Manage comes here claiming to not know you and to be backing you up yet he is most likely using the same computer as you. Are you going to explain why?????".
Yes, please explain WHY, already! Otherwise, nothing you say will ever be taken to be true...
On behalf of the entire board of directors of the ICA, I would like to apologize for the tone and substance of this thread. The ICA was established to represent the broad spectrum of interests of all involved in the domain industry, an industry we strongly believe in. Based on this thread, it is obvious we can do a better job. In that spirit, we have decided to make a change in the leadership of our organization. A new executive director will be appointed shortly and we will improve our communications to address the other shortcomings noted in this thread.
We hope that no one will harbor long lasting ill-will towards the ICA based on this thread or any other conversations with our former executive director. We value your feedback and encourage you to participate in the ICA.
I am not a regular poster on this board. If anyone wants to discuss this further (or any other matter related to the ICA), you can contact me at ica[at]oversee.net.
Smartest post by ICA to date. I wish Jude luck in whatever he pursues it was just obvious he wasn't ready to be a spokesman for domainers. We are a savvy crowd and he has much to learn imho.
Welcome Josh to Namepros even if you don't plan to participate I hope you read this site often enough to get a feel for the views here overall. While no one person can represent domainers I do feel that a concensus could be reached on certain matters. I wish the ICA luck in finding that concensus and taking it to the powers that be...
This is a sad thread. You guys crucified Jude. Reading this thread was like watching a group of cats playing with a mouse until the mouse stopped moving. Something did seem amiss with Jude. There could be an explanation for his behavior...
I agree. I exchanged a couple of PMs with him and he doesn't seem like a bad guy. He came off kind of wishy-washy (changing positions, then saying there was no position), but I think he has good intentions. He should have been clearer from the beginning that ICA doesn't have any position yet on domains being property, that's really what caused the whole problem...
I do not agree.
It was Jude who sparked the whole thing and cast suspicion on ICA as a whole with the multiple signup (still unanswered but lack of response is a response in itself)..
But it was obvious Jude was not fit for the job (communication) and we can only wish him well for his next endeavours...
The problem is he says the ICA had no opinions, but go to their site, and there as clear as day was their stance. I had pasted it to this thread. I did say Jude did have good intentions, but his path and follow through was not good to say the least, and his intentions were misguided. But the bottom line is he did not listen, then he lied and them he set up a second username and then proceeded to say how Jude is good. That was the problem, he tried BS people here and we called him on it...
Nah , The entire "Domains Are Property" arguement has always been a touchy subject and People should feel strongly one way or another about it IMO. As many Veterans have stated - Pushing a statement or cause in a open forum is not for everyone.
I don't think you'll find anyone actually Happy about the way this thread panned out , But it was handled in the "open" and I can't see it playing out any other way considering the actions taken by others. I was in the middle of endorsing the ICA somewhat when this all happened and still feel the idea(s) behind this organization are worth listening to.
Hopefully something Positive will come from it all..